Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-8-07 WT Study (Obedient Children)

Has the WTS policy re spanking changed? If so, where, and why? Were you spanked as a child? Looking back, was it physical abuse based on current secular definitions? How is spanking viewed and applied in today’s secular society and the WTS?

Notice how discipline = spanking and how mothers are the designated WTS spankers. Why is it that our supervisors don’t spank us? Why is it that the elders don’t spank us?

*** w54 1/15 p. 54 par. 2 Disciplining Children for Life ***

Many child psychologists put a "hands off" sign on children, as did one who said: "Do you mothers realize that every time you spank your child you show that you are hating your child?" Jehovah says: "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him." A spanking may be a lifesaver to a child, for Jehovah says: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod you will save his life from Sheol."

Well, we just have to face the fact that these animal mothers are old-fashioned and seem not to have read any modern books on child psychology, because they surely do spank their young.

Some animal parents kill and eat their young…should humans imitate their behavior?

*** w60 1/15 p. 49 par. 19 The Happy Family of the Wonder-working God ***

The wise parent today keeps his children close by him. He is interested in them, and regularly studies the Bible with them at home. He follows all the wise counsel of God’s Word, in properly training his children. When it comes to meeting time, he appreciates that it is not a matter of asking the children, Would you like to come along? Or of suggesting to them, Do you feel too tired tonight, deary? Nor does he take them along just because there is no one at home to look after them. He does not leave the children at home for fear they may be too noisy at the meeting. He takes the little ones to the meeting, whether they want to go or not, and if they misbehave, he corrects them, not by bribing them with candies, but by applying a good spanking as needed. They soon understand that they are there to listen and to learn.—Prov. 13:24; 23:13, 14; Deut. 4:9, 10.

*** w65 11/1 p. 644 In the Spirit of Love ***

In striking contrast to that mother was the father (in another true-life incident) who had kindly but firmly told his daughter not to be running around in the Christian meeting place after the program for worship had ended and who warned her she would get a spanking if she did. Before long, though, she was running around again and so her father required her to sit still on a chair until the time came for them to go home. Upon arriving at home the father took her upon his lap and kindly asked her if she remembered what he had told her would happen if she kept acting disorderly. Yes, she did, but begged off being punished, promising she would not do it again. But her father asked her, "What would you think of a person who made promises but did not keep them, and would you want your daddy to be like that?" She saw he had no alternative but to give her the spanking, which he did. But right after her tears had dried she came over to where her daddy was sitting and, putting her arms around him, said, "Daddy, I love you!" No question about it, administering punishment in the spirit of love, without anger or getting provoked, is the best way.

Why was not sitting quietly on a chair sufficient punishment? God promised through Jonah that he was going to execute them, did God follow through on that "promise"?

*** w72 12/1 p. 708 Do Not Harbor a Grudge ***

This brings to mind what a humorist once related. At times his father spanked him for something he had not done. When he complained, his father responded: ‘Well, that was for the time you did something for which you should have gotten a spanking and didn’t get one.’

Should the elders have random judicial committees just in case someone should have had one and didn’t?

*** w73 9/15 p. 557 par. 20 What Kind of Training Do Children Need? ***

A New York Times editorial, April 5, 1972, said: "‘Spare the rod and spoil the child’ is a wrong-headed adage that continues to get approving nods from self-appointed upholders of ‘the old virtues.’ It is difficult to fathom why the administration of premeditated, painful punishment by a bigger and stronger person could instill anything other than the belief that force triumphs." But is this view correct?

(Prov. 13:24) It shows real love on the part of a parent to do whatever he can to correct his child, including spanking him

*** w79 5/1 p. 30 Insight on the News ***

However, the enormous increase in juvenile delinquency is one evidence that the ‘no spanking’ view has not helped matters.

Is there proof of a correlation between not spanking and juvenile delinquency?

*** w82 7/15 p. 9 How to Enjoy a Happy Family Life ***

The giving of discipline, even if it includes a spanking, is an evidence of parental love

From 1988 to 2004 the WTS does not mention "spanking" in the WT. But in 2004,

*** w04 7/15 p. 31 "Everyone Shrewd Will Act With Knowledge" ***

A rod is a symbol of authority. At Proverbs 13:24, it refers to parental authority. In this context, employing the rod of discipline does not necessarily mean spanking a child. Rather, it represents the means of correction, whatever form it may take. In one case, a rebuke kindly given to a child may be sufficient to correct improper behavior. Another child may require a stronger reproof. "A rebuke works deeper in one having understanding than striking a stupid one a hundred times," says Proverbs 17:10.

Is that why the elders don’t spank, strike, beat "erring" JWs?

*** w06 11/1 p. 5 Reliable Advice for Raising Children ***

Dr. James Dobson wrote

in TheStrong-WilledChild (1978): "Corporal punishment in the hands of a loving parent is a teaching tool by which harmful behavior is inhibited." On the other hand, in an article adapted from the seventh edition of the popular book BabyandChildCare (1998), Dr. Benjamin Spock said: "Spanking teaches children that the larger, stronger person has the power to get his way, whether or not he is in the right."

With regard to discipline, the Bible states: "The rod and reproof are what give wisdom." (Proverbs 29:15) However, not all children need physical punishment. Proverbs 17:10)

Do you know who Dr. James Dobson is? Whose modality does the WTS still use? Dobson or Spock?

What about countries that have outlawed spanking children?

*** g79 6/22 p. 29 Watching the World ***Sweden Defies Ancient Standards

Instead of mothers’ tender care, new baby Swedes may now receive well-meant but perhaps rougher handling by their fathers for the first eight months. (WTS implication that men cannot be caring parents) Sweden’s government has offered fathers the option of staying home to care for their infants at 90 percent salary while mother goes to work. Thousands of fathers have responded to the invitation.

Also, the Swedish Parliament recently voted overwhelmingly to prohibit parents from spanking their children or subjecting them to any other so-called "humiliating treatment." The Ministry of Justice is said to be planning an information campaign that will include distributing videotapes that inform children about their rights. Then how are parents to discipline? Though warning against physical punishment, a government pamphlet for parents says: "Of course, you have the right as a parent to get angry and show it."

*** g80 4/8 p. 29 Watching the World ***Discipline Disarmed

On January 1, the Federal Republic of Germany joined Sweden in restricting parents’ authority to discipline their children. (See Awake!, 6/22/79, p. 29.) Parents are forbidden to use "degrading upbringing measures," such as spanking, when children disobey. The little ones can take parents to Family Court if they should violate the new law. The government argues that children lose their "human dignity" when they are spanked. However, under the new law, "human dignity" may well be replaced with childish arrogance. ( Does the WTS have proof of this, why aren’t adult JWs "spanked" to prevent adult arrogance?)

What adjustments has the WTS made? For one, they have removed any mention of spanking in their publications. Has there been any written "adjustments" in the KMs of those countries? If any readers know about this, please share.

the following 17 states , children are protected by law from all corporal punishment:

Netherlands (2007)

Finland (1983)

Latvia (1998),

Austria (1989)

Germany (2000)

Norway (1987)

Croatia (1999)

Israel (2000)

Sweden (1979)

Cyprus (1994)

Iceland (2003)

Ukraine (2004)

Denmark (1997)

Bulgaria (2000)

Hungary (2005)

Romania (2004)

Greece (2006)

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/frame.html

If someone at the KH or in the community hit you the way parents hit their children….

START OF ARTICLE

Q1) How can obedience protect you?

1) We may be alive now because we obeyed, while others are not alive because they failed to obey. Obey what? Warnings, for example, from our "wonderfully made" bodies. (Psalm 139:14) Our eyes see dark clouds, and our ears hear claps of thunder. Then, the electrical charge in the air makes our hair stand on end. To those who have been taught about the potential dangers, these signs are a warning to seek a place of safety from the impending storm with its lightning and hailstones that may be life threatening.

Taught about the potential dangers…warning

Parents (WTS/FDS/GB) = children (rank and file JWs)

Q2) Why do children need warnings, and why should they obey their parents?

2) You young ones need warnings about potential dangers, and your parents have the responsibility to provide them. You may recall being told: "Don't touch the stove. It's hot." "Stay away from the water. It's dangerous." "Look both ways before you cross the street." Sadly, children have been hurt or even killed for failing to obey. To be obedient to your parents "is righteous"-right and proper. It is also wise. (Proverbs 8:33) Another Bible text says that it is "well-pleasing" to our Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, God commands you to obey your parents.-Colossians 3:20; 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Are "young ones" warned by the elders and their parents about the known pedophiles in the congregation, circuit, district?

Sadly, [adults] have been hurt or even killed for failing to obey.

To be obedient to your parents (WTS) is…right and proper..also wise.

In other words, if you don’t obey your parents (WTS) you aren’t obeying Jesus or God.

Lasting Rewards of Obedience

Q3) What is "the real life" for most of us, and how can children hope to enjoy it?

3) Obedience to your parents protects your "life now," but obedience will also make it possible for you to enjoy the life "which is to come," called "the real life." (1 Timothy 4:8; 6:19) For most of us, the real life is endless life on earth in God's new world, which he promises to those who faithfully adhere to his commandments. A chief one of these commandments says: "`Honor your father and your mother'; which is the first command with a promise: `That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth."' So if you obey your parents, you will be happy. Your future will be secure, and you will be in line to enjoy everlasting life on a paradise earth!-Ephesians 6:2, 3.

Enjoy the life "which is to come" called "the real life"…for most of us (except 8,754 and increasing) is endless life on earth in God’s new world— Everlasting life in a paradise earth CARROT

Not endless life for 6.5 billion non-JW men, women, children including babies in utero. Only everlasting destruction with no hope of a resurrection.

* w99 12/1 p. 18 par. 15 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation *

The message is clear: If we want to survive Armageddon, we must remain spiritually alert and keep the symbolic garments that identify us as faithful Witnesses of Jehovah God.

* w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium *

Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4) They will make up the "flesh" that Jesus Christ said would be saved through the worst tribulation of all human history.

enjoy everlasting life on a paradise earth— 2 CARROTS in one paragraph (actually 3)

Q4) How can children honor God and thus benefit?

4) When you honor your parents by obeying them, you also honor God because he is the one who commands you to obey them. At the same time, you benefit. "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself," the Bible says. (Isaiah 48:17; 1 John 5:3) How does being obedient benefit you? It makes your mother and father happy, and in turn, they will certainly show their pleasure in ways that will make your life happier. (Proverbs 23:22-25) But most important, your obedience makes your heavenly Father happy, and he will reward you in marvelous ways! Let us see how Jehovah blessed and protected Jesus, who said about himself: "I always do the things pleasing to him."-John 8:29.

Honor parents = honor God

Where do abusive parents come into the picture? Who should children go to about abusive parents? Will the elders protect abused children or the organization’s image?

Do JW parents reward their children for good behavior? Will God only reward children if they obey their parents? Does this apply if the child’s parents are not JWs or worse ex-JWs? Should children obey their non-JW or ex-JW parents?

[Picture on page 24] Twelve-year-old Jesus was well-versed in the Scriptures

Jesus--A Good Worker

Q5) What reasons are there for believing that Jesus was a good worker?

5) Jesus was the firstborn of his mother, Mary. His adoptive father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus too became a carpenter, evidently learning the trade from Joseph. (Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Luke 1: 26-31) What kind of carpenter do you think Jesus was? When he was in heaven, before he was miraculously conceived by his virgin mother, as wisdom personified, he explained: "I came to be beside [God] as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day." God approved of Jesus, who in heaven was a good worker. Do you think that when he was a youngster on earth he also tried hard to be a good worker, a good carpenter? -Proverbs 8:30; Colossians 1:15,16.

Jesus, too became a carpenter, evidently learning the trade from Joseph.

"evidently"— WTS buzz word means the Bible does not say but the WTS is going to insert an opinion without any historical support.

God approved of Jesus, who in heaven was a good worker. Do you think that when he was a youngster on earth he also tried hard to be a good worker, a good carpenter?

Notice how the WTS links 2 scriptures without any explanation of the conclusion they make. According to the WTS, did Jesus remember his life in heaven before his baptism at 30?

Q6) (a) Why do you think Jesus as a child may have worked at home? (b) In what ways can children imitate Jesus?

6) No doubt, when Jesus was a child, he sometimes played games, even as the Bible says children did in early times. (Zechariah 8:5; Matthew 11:16,17) Yet, you can be sure that as the oldest child in a large family of modest means, he had chores to do in addition to receiving training from Joseph to become a carpenter. Later, Jesus became a preacher and devoted himself to his ministry to the extent of sacrificing personal comforts. (Luke 9:58; John 5:17) Can you see ways in which you can imitate Jesus? Do your parents ask you to clean your room or do other chores? Do they encourage you to participate in worship of God by attending Christian meetings and sharing your beliefs with others? How do you think the young Jesus would have responded to similar requests?

No doubt— another WTS buzz phrase where they are going to insert a statement or conclusion not found in the Bible.

Yet, you can be sure— another WTS puzz phrase where they are going to insert a statement not found in the Bible.

Encourage you to participate— are children given a choice? Are they "encouraged" with a spanking?

A Fine Bible Student and Teacher

Q7) (a) With whom may Jesus have traveled to the Passover? (b) Where was Jesus when others began the journey home, and why was he there?

7) All male members of an Israelite family were commanded to go up to worship Jehovah at the temple during the three Jewish festivals. (Deuteronomy 16:16) When Jesus was 12 years old, his whole family may have made the trip to Jerusalem for the Passover. That likely included half brothers and half sisters. However, those traveling with Jesus' family may have included Salome, who was possibly Mary's sister, along with her husband Zebedee and their sons James and John, who later became apostles.* (Footnote: * See Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, page 841, published by Jehovah's Witnesses.) (Matthew 4:20, 21; 13:54-56; 27:56; Mark 15:40; John 19:25) On the return trip, Joseph and Mary may have assumed that Jesus was with relatives, so at first his absence was not noticed. Three days later, when Mary and Joseph finally found Jesus, he was in the temple, "sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and questioning them." -Luke 2:44-46.

All MALE members of an Israelite family were commanded to go to worship…during the three Jewish festivals.

Likely…may have— 2 other WTS buzz word and phrase meaning the Bible doesn’t say.

I always wondered if Mary and Joseph had made sure Jesus was with some family member before they left Jerusalem. I wondered why Jesus had stayed behind certainly knowing that his family was going home. Very little is said about Jesus before his baptism; why was this account necessary or was it?

Q8) What did Jesus do in the temple, and why were people amazed?

8) In what way was Jesus "questioning" the teachers? His questioning may not have been merely the type to satisfy his curiosity or simply to get information. The Greek word used here could refer to questioning as used in judicial examination and thus could involve counterquestioning. Yes, even as a youth, Jesus had developed into a Bible student who astonished learned religious teachers! "All those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers," the Bible says.-Luke 2:47.

Jesus "questioning" the teachers…may not have been merely the type to satisfy his curiosity or simply to get information

Greek word…could refer to questioning as used in judicial examination and thus could involve counterquestioning

Was Jesus questioning the still authorized religious leaders in his still authorizied religious organization? Was Jesus judicially examining them at 12 years old?

What is counterquestioning? Are JWs allowed to "counterquestion" the "teachers" in their congregations, the elders?

(1 John 4:1) 4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

Q9) How can you follow Jesus' example in studying the Bible?

9) How do you think that at a young age Jesus was able to amaze even experienced teachers with his Bible knowledge? He was, of course, blessed with God-fearing parents who provided him from infancy with divine instruction. (Exodus 12:24-27; Deuteronomy 6:6-9; Matthew 1:18-20) We can be sure that Joseph took young Jesus to the synagogue to hear the Scriptures read and discussed. Are you too blessed with parents who study the Bible with you and take you to Christian meetings? Do you value their efforts, as Jesus appreciated those of his parents? Do you share with others what you learn, as Jesus did?

Blessed with God-fearing parents

We can be sure--- WTS buzz phrase meaning that the Bible does not say but the WTS will make a statement.

Did Mary go to the synagogue? What about Jesus’ brothers and sisters? Did they go 3 days a week or one?

Until Jesus died, he shared his beliefs with fellow believers, Jews. Are they suggesting talking with other JWs?

Jesus Was Submissive

Q10) (a) Why should Jesus' parents have known where to find him? (b) What fine example did Jesus provide for children?

10) How do you think Mary and Joseph felt when after three days they finally found Jesus in the temple? No doubt, they were greatly relieved. Jesus, though, expressed surprise that his parents had not known where he was. Both of them knew about Jesus' miraculous birth. In addition, although not aware of all the details, they would have known something about his future role as Savior and as Ruler of God's Kingdom. (Matthew 1:21; Luke 1:32-35; 2:11) Hence, Jesus asked them: "Why did you have to go looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?" Obediently, however, Jesus left with his parents and returned home to Nazareth. The Bible says: "He continued subject to them." Furthermore, "his mother carefully kept all these sayings in her heart."-Luke 2:48-51.

How do you think…no doubt— Yes, the WTS may invite you to think but in the end they will tell what to think.

May not…could…could— words that leave the WTS statements open to adjustment.

They would have known something about his future role —and what would that something have been other than the prophecies the religious leaders had identified as pertaining to the Messiah.

Can you imagine a JW child staying behind to question the CO or the DO and getting separated from his/her parents and being told the same thing. Do you think a little "discipline" would be applied?

Q11) What lesson about obedience can you learn from Jesus?

11) Do you find it easy to imitate Jesus, always obeying your parents? Or do you feel that they often do not understand today's world and that you know more than they do? Granted, you may know more about certain things--perhaps about using cell phones, computers, or other modern gadgets. But think about Jesus, who amazed experienced teachers with "his understanding and his answers." You will probably agree that compared with him, you know little. Yet, Jesus was submissive to his parents. This does not necessarily mean that he always agreed with their decisions. Nevertheless, "he continued subject to them"--right through his teenage years. What lesson do you think you can learn from his example?-Deuteronomy 5:16, 29.

Always obeying your parents— do parents ALWAYS obey the secular laws, the elders, their supervisors?

You may know more than parents = Jesus knows more than you (compared at 12) and his parents = submissive to parents (except when he stayed behind)

THIS DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT HE ALWAYS AGREED WITH THEIR DECISIONS

So if he didn’t, what did he do? What did his parents do? After all they knew he was the future Messiah.

If JW children today don’t agree, what can they do??????????????????

[Picture on page 26] How did Jesus learn obedience from suffering?

Obedience-A Challenge

Q12) How may obedience save your life?

12 It is not always easy to be obedient, as illustrated a few years ago when two young girls were about to dash across a six-lane highway rather than take the overpass walkway. "Come on John," they urged a companion as he headed toward the walkway above. "You're going with us, aren't you?" When he hesitated, one girl taunted him, "You're just a chicken!" John, although unafraid, said, "I just have to listen to my mother." On the walkway moments later, he heard screeching tires and looked down just as the girls were hit by a car. One girl died, and the other was so badly hurt that her leg had to be amputated. The girls' mother, who had told them to use the elevated walkway, later said to John's mother, "I sure wish they had been as obedient as your son."-Ephesians 6:1.

Does this account sound familiar? It was related in 2 WT sources almost 20 years ago (see also Young People Ask, Chapter 1, page 13)

*** g88 1/8 p. 21 Why Should I Obey Mom and Dad? ***TheValueofObedience

"I don’t care if you do call me a ‘chicken,’" said John to the two girls. "I just have to listen to my mother." As the girls darted across the roadway, John obediently used the walkway. While crossing, he heard the screeching of tires. Looking down, he saw the two girls hit and knocked into the air. One landed in the opposite lane of traffic, where she was struck again and killed. Her sister’s leg was crushed and was later amputated.

This tragedy brought home to John how limited was his own experience. He had seen many other youths, including the two girls, run across the roadway without mishap. His mother, however, vividly remembered that, some five years earlier, the child of one of her friends was killed while trying to run across the same roadway. Because of her broader experience, she made rules to protect her son.

John’s mother, Thelma, later visited the mother of the girls to comfort her. The grieving mother explained: "I constantly told the girls always to use the overpass, but they wouldn’t listen. They decided to go anyway. I sure wish they had been as obedient as your son." Yes, John’s obedience may have saved his life.

Q13) (a) Why should you obey your parents? (b) When would it be proper for a child not to do what a parent tells him to do?

13) Why does God say: "Children, be obedient to your parents"? By obeying your parents, you thereby obey God. Besides that, your parents have more experience than you do. For example, just five years before the accident related above, John's mother had a friend whose child was killed trying to cross that very highway! True, it may not always be easy to obey your parents, but God says that you should. On the other hand, if your parents--or others--tell you to lie, steal, or do anything that is disapproved by God, you must "obey God as ruler rather than men." That is why after saying "be obedient to your parents," the Bible adds, "in union with the Lord." This involves your obeying your parents in all things that are in harmony with God's laws.-Acts 5:29.

Obeying parents = obeying God

Obeying WTS/FDS/GB = obeying God

Your parents (WTS/FDS/GB) have more experience than you do

Not always be easy to obey your parents (WTS/FDS/GB), but God says that you should

On the hand, if you parents—or others (WTS/FDS/GB)—TELL YOU TO LIE…or do anything that is disapproved by God (God = WTS/FDS/GB), you must "obey God as ruler rather than men."

What has the WTS told its members to do that was not what God wanted:

Superior authorities are Jesus and God

Getting an organ transplant is a disfellowshipping offense

Accepting alternative civilian service is a disfellowshipping offense

Homosexuality or bestiality is not grounds for a scriptural divorce

Teach that the people who died at Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected

Jesus’ presence began in 1874

The end is coming in 1914, 1915, 1920, 1925, 1975

And so on

Q14) Why is obedience easier for someone perfect, yet why would he need to learn about it?

14) Do you think that if you were perfect--that is, "undefiled, separated from the sinners," as was Jesus--it would always be easy to obey your parents? (Hebrews 7:26) If you were perfect, you would not be inclined to do what is bad, as you are now. (Genesis 8: 21; Psalm 51:5) Even Jesus, however, had to learn lessons about obedience. The Bible says: "Although [Jesus] was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered." (Hebrews 5:8) How did suffering help Jesus to learn obedience, a lesson he never had to learn in heaven?

Do you think that if you were perfect…if you were perfect— You can get a "conversation" started among a group of JWs that would last for hours about what it means to be "perfect."

Not be inclined to do what is bad…Jesus had to learn…obedience

Suffering helped Jesus to learn obedience— how have the angels "suffered"? Does that mean that they have not learned obedience in heaven?

Can obedience only be learned through suffering?

Q15, 16) How did Jesus learn obedience?

15) Under Jehovah's direction, Joseph and Mary protected Jesus from harm when he was a child. (Matthew 2:7-23) Eventually, though, God removed supernatural protection from Jesus. Jesus' mental and physical suffering became so great that the Bible says that he "offered up supplications and also petitions ... with strong outcries and tears." (Hebrews 5:7) When did this happen?

Does this mean that parents today have God’s direction or supernatural protection in protecting their children or is it unforeseen circumstance befall us all?

Without supernatural protection, Jesus was still a physicall, mentally perfect man…did Jesus not cry before supernatural protection was removed at the death of Lazarus?

16) In particular, it occurred during the final hours of Jesus' earthly life when Satan made an all-out attempt to break His integrity. Jesus was evidently so tortured by thoughts of how his death as a supposed evildoer might reflect badly on his Father's reputation that as "he continued praying [in the garden of Gethsemane] his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground." A few hours later, his manner of death on a torture stake was so painful that Jesus uttered "strong outcries [with] tears." (Luke 22:42-44; Mark 15: 34) He thus "learned obedience from the things he suffered" and thereby made his Father's heart rejoice. Now in heaven, Jesus feels our pain as we often struggle to be obedient.-Proverbs 27:11; Hebrews 2:18; 4:15.

Evidently— WTS buzzword meaning that the WTS will add something that is not in the Bible.

Torture stake— did you know that until 1931 there was a cross on the cover of the WT?

Jesus feels our pain— but notthe WTS/FDS/GB and their representatives the elders, COs, DOs. Instead they give us pain.

Learning the Lesson of Obedience

Q17) How should we view receiving discipline?

17) When your father and mother discipline you, it shows that they want the best for you, that they love you. "What son is he that a father does not discipline?" the Bible asks. Would it not be sad if your parents did not love you enough to take the time and make the effort to correct you? Similarly, because Jehovah loves you, he corrects you. "True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness."-Hebrews 12:7-11.

Notice how the WTS uses "discipline" and dances around the concept of "spanking."

Love = effort to correct you

Thus disfellowshiping is showing love, right?

God corrects us through our parents (WTS/FDS/GB).

Q18) (a) Of what is loving discipline an evidence? (b) In what positive ways have you seen people molded by such discipline?

18)A king in ancient Israel, whom Jesus noted for his great wisdom, spoke of the need for loving, parental correction. "The one holding back his rod is hating his son," Solomon wrote, "but the one loving him is he that does look for him with discipline." Solomon even said that a person receiving loving correction may have his very soul delivered from death itself. (Proverbs 13:24; 23:13, 14; Matthew 12:42) One Christian woman recalls that as a child when she misbehaved at Christian meetings, her father would promise to discipline her on returning home. Now she remembers her father with affection for providing her with loving discipline that molded her life in a fine way.

Solomon had a father and mother who had committed adultery with each other and a father who had killed his mother’s first husband. What a lesson that was! Solomon learned he had a half brother that died because of his parents’ sin. Solomon also knew that 70,000 Israelites died because of his father’s sins and that his father’s other wives were raped by Solomon’s half-brother as a result of his father’s sins. Solomon learned if he sinned, others would be disciplined.

One Christian woman recalls that as a child when she misbehaved at Christian meetings, her father would promise to discipline her on returning home.

Discipline = spanking

Q19) Why especially should you obey your parents?

19) If you have parents who love you enough to take the time and make the effort to discipline you in a loving way, be grateful. Obey them, even as our Lord Jesus Christ obeyed his parents, Joseph and Mary. But obey them especially because your heavenly Father, Jehovah God, says to do so. You will thereby benefit yourself, and it "may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth."-Ephesians 6:2,3.

Discipline you a loving way— just the way the WTS/FDS/GB disciplines the rank and file? Spanking?

How much of the Bible talks about Jesus interacting with his parents as a child? Was he obedient on that occasion?

Endure a long time on the earth— CARROT everlasting life on a paradise earth

How Would You Answer?

- What are the benefits children may receive from obeying their parents?

- As a child, how did Jesus set an example in obeying his parents?

- How did Jesus learn obedience?

Concluding Comments

Do you think the men who wrote this article are parents? And when they were children it was in the 1940’s?

Obedience is the theme but obedience really to whom? The WTS or God?

It’s cold today…winter is slapping us still but the green grass gives me hope. But I’m not as cold as Laree Slack is in the ground still. Love to us all, Blondie

Some of you may remember this even in Chicago. A young JW girl was beaten to death by her parents. Rather than their being on the edge, the book study had been held at their home. Do you wonder how many other JWs were aware of this "discipline"?

http://www.nospank.net/n-i69.htm

Biblical beating kills girl: cops By Maureen O'Donnell, Ana Mendieta and Annie Sweeney, Staff Reporters
Chicago Sun-Times, November 13, 2001

The parents accused of beating their 12-year-old daughter to death have told police they were meting out the biblical punishment of "40 lashes minus one, three times," detectives said Monday.

Constance Slack, a registered nurse at a children's hospital, gagged her daughter, Laree, while she was strapped down to a futon

, police said. Her father, Larry Slack, then repeatedly hit the child with an inch-thick section of rubberized electrical cable filled with strands of wire, police said. She died of internal bleeding.

"It was horrific,'' one seasoned police officer said.

The parents were upset that Laree was being "uncooperative" after they ordered their chilldren to find a smock with credit cards inside Saturday night, police said. Larry Slack is a firm believer in corporal punishment, and he and his wife decided to administer discipline from the Bible, investigators said.

"It was his attempt to teach his daughter about responsibility,'' Area 2 Sgt. Stan Salabura said.

Both parents are devout Jehovah's Witnesses who home-schooled their six children, ages 8 to 17, police and neighbors said.

"He was a strict person. Whenever he came out, the kids would straighten right up and pay attention to him,'' said a neighbor who didn't want to be identified.

But friends were shocked by the allegations. "He was a very peaceful guy and a very smart person. And he was very religious," said the Rev. Wayne Lewis Jr., who attended Bible studies in the home. "The first time we met he was trying to convert me, but I am a Baptist minister.'"

The Slack home on South Brandon stood empty Monday, calm, with no traces of the tragedy. The family's two cars were parked outside in the 7900 block. Along the stairway to the second floor were a training manual for Jehovah's Witnesses, stapled sheets with math problems, a grill, a basketball hoop and a Domestic Violence Safety Plan issued by the Cook County state attorney's office.

The Slacks were a quiet family who stayed away from their neighbors, hidden behind a 6-foot-high wooden fence that Larry Slack built to replace a chain-link one.

Larry Slack, 42, is a 23-year employee of the CTA who was known as a "good machinist and a hard worker,'' Salabura said. Constance Slack, also 42, is believed to work at La Rabida Children's Hospital, he said.

Both parents have been charged with first-degree murder and also aggravated battery of a child for the alleged beating of their 8-year-old son

, also on Saturday night. The Slack's five other children all showed indications of physical abuse
. They were taken into state custody and placed with relatives, authorities said. Larry Slack was treated at Advocate Christ Hospital and Medical Center Sunday night after allegedly attempting to kill himself while turning himself in to police at Area 2 detective headquarters. He was in the Central District lock-up Monday.

In a statement Monday, the Slack family said it was cooperating with police.

"We loved Laree dearly,'' said Leroy Slack, who identified himself as Larry Slack's uncle and a family spokesman. "We're very disturbed over the circumstances surrounding her death."

Contributing: Cathleen Falsani

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060602/ai_n16461212

Man gets life in prison for whipping death: Judge: 'You beat your

Stefano Esposito

No one came to curse him.

No one came to weep for him.

The spacious courtroom gallery was all but empty Thursday, as a Cook County Judge sentenced Larry Slack to life in prison for whipping his daughter to death with a thick, frayed electrical cable.

"It looked exactly like you beat your own daughter like a slave master hitting a slave," Judge Thomas Sumner told the hulking defendant, wearing "5 XL" beige Cook County Jail scrubs. "I don't understand it. I will never understand it. I don't want to understand it."

Sumner told Slack, "I believe there are human rights violations that aren't as bad as this."

The sentencing came one month after jurors heard how Slack, relying on a perverse interpretation of biblical punishment, beat his 12-year-old daughter Laree Slack to death as she lay gagged, half naked and bound to a metal futon frame Nov. 11, 2001, in the family's South Side home.

The jurors also were in court as Laree's brother held the black electrical cable aloft and demonstrated his father's skin-splitting technique.

'I DID NOT KILL HER'

During the trial, prosecutors argued Slack began beating Laree after she and her siblings were unable to find a lost credit card. Larry Slack became incensed after Laree cried out, unable to endure the blows silently. Two of the children testified at trial that their father routinely engaged in group beatings of his six offspring.

In a voice hovering near a mumbled whisper, Larry Slack told Sumner Thursday he's convinced he didn't kill his daughter. He said he knows that's true because he remembered talking to Laree after the beating.

"I did not kill her," Slack insisted. "I did react badly. I did react harshly."

'THIS DEFENDANT IS STILL IN DENIAL'

And as he did during his trial -- when at one point he tried to fire his attorneys -- Slack differed sharply with his legal counsel. He disagreed with defense attorney Denise Streff's assessment that he has mental health issues.

Rick Cenar, one of three prosecutors handling the case, said: "Basically, this defendant is still in denial."

In addition to the life term without the possibility for parole for the murder charge, Sumner also imposed an additional 30-year term for aggravated battery to a child in the beating of Laree's young brother, Lester Slack.

[email protected]

nvrgnbk

Were you spanked as a child?

Mom and Dad both womped my ass plenty. Of course, I got what I deserved, according to them. LOL!

Nvr

Thanks for the review Blondie!

Sorry if this comment is off-topic(see jgnat's comment).

Gerard

Do you know who Dr. James Dobson is?

The whole article is a puke alert. But I did google for Dr. James Dobson + spanking and got this from Wikipedia. The most interesting thing is that the history of this Wiki article reveals that his profile was created on Marh 18th. 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson

Background
Dobson is the son, grandson, and great-grandson of Nazarene Evangelists , and remains a member of this conservative Evangelical denomination , which came from the 19th century Holiness Movement .
Dobson first became well-known with the publication of Dare to Discipline, a book that became a cultural phenomenon among conservative Christian families. Dare to Discipline asserts the value of spanking children who defy their parents. This caused some controversy among those who oppose all physical discipline of children. Dobson's social and political opinions are widely read among many evangelical church congregations in the United States. Dobson publishes monthly bulletins also called Focus on the Family which are dispensed as inserts in some Sunday church service bulletins.

jgnat

Sorry, I'll first take the theme a little back to the original article. I wrote these comments yesterday.

This article could be subtitled "Obey your Parents or Die...and because you love Jehovah."

A great deal of speculation on Jesus' raising. How is this any different than the Catholic myths? http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html

Though lip service is paid to Jesus' discourse with the elders of the day, the article glosses over the critical aspect. I doubt the modern Witness child could openly question the elders the way Jesus did.

Which brings me to Jesus' supposed education. Was he merely required to attend all meetings and listen attentively? Where did he learn the discursive study method? Such free questioning and open discourse is certainly absent in Watchower studies today.

What exactly was Jewish education like? Why did the Watchtower article gloss over this?

The Talmud (tractate Bava Bathra 21a) praises the sage Joshua ben Gamla (1st century CE) with the institution of formal Jewish education. Prior to this, parents taught their children informally. Ben Gamla instituted schools in every town and made education compulsory from the age of 6 or 7. The Talmud attaches great importance to the "Tinokot shel beth Rabban" (the children [who study] at the Rabbi's house),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_education

Think "middot" – moral qualities. Think "mitzvot" – commandments or good deeds. Think "musar" – instruction. Then, think "mensch" – decent person. These are the ideas and the ideals that express the meaning of the term "Jewish values" as it is conceptualized and used in The New Jewish Valuesfinder.... Practice the positive, reject the negative, and the moral qualities you possess will make you a mensch. Not necessarily rich, or handsome, or famous but, better than all of those, a mensch.
http://www.ajljewishvalues.org/

Is it perhaps because the most valued quality of a good Jehovah's Witness is obedience. What of other values such as pursuing justice, being decent to people, do not destroy? The JW child need not even be nice to his "worldly" friends. Just as long as he obey his parents and Jehovah his whole life long so that he is not run over and killed on a six-lane highway.

http://community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=2753

Regarding Spanking:

I spanked my children, but only for willful disobedience. I never spanked when angry. I never spanked for childish behavior. We always talked before and after, so they knew what the discipline was for. I also used rewards and time-outs. When they became teenagers, I became more creative, and didn't spank again. Looking back, other methods of discipline are just as effective. It's consistency that matters more.

I don't see the value in disciplining a little child to sit still for two hours.

Gill

Children are expected to obey their parents no matter what.

The Rank and File of the JWs are expected to obey 'Momma' no matter what.

Their 'survival' in the ever Sooooooooon coming Armageddon depends on their unquestioning obedience to whatever instructions the ever aging GB come up with.

Control, control and yet more control is all this article is about.

Is it hardly surprising that last week we learned that women were to stay with their abusive husbands and this week that children must obey everything their parents tell them in fear of either displeasing God and dying sooon, or meeting some unforseen imminent disaster.

Superstition prevents the average dub from even questioning never mind disobeying.

I watched my JW relatives keep their son away from my sons the other week. The boy is only allowed his mobile phone when he is away from school and his parents boast that they check every call he gets and read his messages. They also do not allow him to use the internet unless they are with him.

Control and Fear. Fear and Control. The most important words in the lives of a Jehovah's Witness.

Thanks for doing that study, Blondie.

The WTBTS at its controlling best.

ithinkisee

If you want an example (or many) of the types of parents that children are to be in subjection to, check out this collection of news articles:

http://www.thejehovahswitnesses.com/index.php/category/jws-in-the-news/

Each one also has a PDF of the original article, so you could print them all off and hand a stack of them to a JW and say, "So tell me again how Jehovah's Witnesses are any better than non-JWs?"

-ithinkisee

Gill

ithinkisee - This is where a die hard JW would say that you're just picking fault and not accepting that jWs are imperfect, like everyone else. That doesn't mean of course that they're not going to live forever because they OBEY Jehovah's organization on earth 'Big Momma' and THAT is ALL that matters!!!

Sorry for venitng! Had too much contact for the good of my sanity with Jehovah's Witnesses this week!!!!

MinisterAmos

I'm sure I could locate a person with fine credentials who espouses having sex with minor children, but that doesn't mean I'll agree with him. The problem is that when garbage like Dr. What's HisName's is published in the WT, it become law, passed down from God's representatives on Earth to you and me.

It wouldn't be commented on benignly in the WT if it wasn't to be taken as policy. You will note that when the WT DISagrees with a certain activity they will blast it with both barrels.

xjwms

Another great on Blondie.!

These are the meetings I just hated.

I guess the big buzz word in this one is OBEY no matter what.

.

jgnat

Obey or you will be run over on a six-lane highway.

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-8-07 WT Study (Obedient Children)

the following 17 states , children are protected by law from all corporal punishment:

*** w99 12/1 p. 18 par. 15 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation ***

*** w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***

One Christian woman recalls that as a child when she misbehaved at Christian meetings, her father would promise to discipline her on returning home.

In addition to the life term without the possibility for parole for the murder charge, Sumner also imposed an additional 30-year term for aggravated battery to a child in the beating of Laree's young brother, Lester Slack.

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* w99 12/1 p. 18 par. 15 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation *

* w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium *