Yep, it is simple alright. The more I read the Bible the simpler it gets. No need to add extra words.
John 1:3
by VanillaMocha73 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vice
Ok unbaptized. Easy as 1,2,3 huh?
You ready for this?
- Where does the bible say that Jesus was created? (if you say because He is called firstborn, then one has to ask, why is David called firstborn in Psalm 89:27, and Ephraim called firstborn in Jer 31:9 (ref. Gen 41:50-52), when they were both younger than their siblings? Maybe because firstborn doesn't mean frist created in this context, but it gives a status or title, meaning heir to everything.)
- Why does Jehovah say he is doing everything, "stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth(Isa44:24,Ps102:25-27); when in the NT it is recorded that Jesus did it all(Col1:16,Heb1:10-12)?
- If Jehovah resurrected Jesus, then why did Jesus say "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."Joh2:19
Problems arise when finite minds try to simplify and contain an infinite God! When one uses the context of the whole Bible and not just bits and pieces of the message, things are made clearer and it turns out to be not as easy as 1,2,3. God is not simple and the message is not easy, but it has been recorded, and He teaches us who He is! We have to ask ourselves if we truly want to know Him, and seek Him, outside of our head and focus solely on our Heart! We must use context, and not proof-text.
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Liza
I agree with Vice, we are trying to squeeze something outside of our common logic into a little understandable summary about one sentance long when it cannot fit that.
It's like Newton trying to comprehend quantam mechanics. -
Kenneson
Why should we believe that only mankind was made in the beginning? John 1:2 says that the Word was in the beginning with God, not that he had a beginning. It is the same beginning that Gen. 1 and 2 speak about. There weren't three beginnings: one for Jesus, one for the universe, and one for man.
Col. 1:16 says that through Jesus all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist." This is not speaking of only things on earth: mankind. The Word is already in existence in the beginning. John 1:2
Heb. 1:3 depicts Jesus as being co-creator of the universe with the Father. Does it make sense to believe that Jesus existed in the beginning but that he didn't actually do anything until he made man?
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Mary
Terry said: As writings about Jesus proliferated a gradual evolution is detected by scholars placing them on a timeline of change. Early writings demonstrate Jesus as human. Later writings color his deeds as superhuman. By the time the Gospel (attributed to John) of John comes along the Jesus represented is now fully on par with the Only True God of the Jews as a morph into equal status without conflict as to number.
I remember reading a book several years ago called The Church of the First Three Centuries and on the subject of the Trinity it said that one of the deciding factors in making Jesus "God", was the fact that they knew the Jews worshipped a monothesis God and if Christians did the same thing, it would reduce Christianity to Judaism------something that the Emperor did not want to see happen. Hence, the doctrine of the Trinity was born. (Ironically, I was reading this book in the public library when an elder saw me and wanted to know what I was reading. He actually went and told the other elders that I was reading "questionable" books, when in fact, I was reading something that actually supported one of their doctrines.
Jews could no longer accept such a Messiah which violated thousands of years of monotheism. These Jews could have (and did) represented a real holdout to any doctrine of Trinity.
One of my co-workers is an Orthodox Jew and we've talked about the subject of Jesus several times. I was surprised when she told me that most Jews believe that someone named Jesus existed, but what they find so offensive, is that Christianity has made him part of the Trinity, putting him on equal footing as YHVH----something they have not and will not accept. -
agapa37
You are saying "Jehovah made Jesus (The Word), Jehovah & Jesus made all other things.Jehovah resurrected Jesus, Jehovah thru Jesus resurrects the righteous and unrighteous!" But the Bible says "3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (New World Translation). What this is saying is " All things came into existence through Jesus (or the Word), and apart from Jesus not even one thing came into existence." Therefore, that first statement of "Jehovah made Jesus" just does not make sense. Apart from Jesus not even ONE thing came into existence - it does not say anything about one thing being made and then Jesus made all things.....
I have researched this in the WT pub library and really don't find anything that addresses the question.
Terry,
I still believe that God is powerful enough to protect His word from adulteration. So I do tend to believe the Bible for what it says. I know this is a matter of personal faith, so it is fine if you differ. :-)If we consider what the REST of the Bible has to say about the subject it becomes clearer. I see that you are includung Jesus in the statement at John when he says ALL things. Think of this though, if we appy that line of reasoning then what about God? Does it mean Jesus created God too? Isn't God part of ALL things like Jesus? We know from OTHER verses that God had no beginning right? Using the same reasoning from the scriptures, other verses in the Bible DO say that Jesus had a begining. Notice this scripture..
Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him(Notice that?) and for him.
The Bible definetly says Jesus was created by God as His first creation. That verse says that by means of him (Jesus) ALL OTHER things were created through him!.......... It is not so hard to see that. Like Paul we must use our reason when reading the Bible.
Respectfully
AGAPE
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Terry
Terry,
I still believe that God is powerful enough to protect His word from adulteration. So I do tend to believe the Bible for what it says. I know this is a matter of personal faith, so it is fine if you differ. :-)There is no question that God is powerful enought to protect His word from adulteration.
The question is: DID GOD represent His word in what we call the Bible?
Two separate issues, really.
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JosephMalik
Why should we believe that only mankind was made in the beginning? John 1:2 says that the Word was in the beginning with God, not that he had a beginning. It is the same beginning that Gen. 1 and 2 speak about. There weren't three beginnings: one for Jesus, one for the universe, and one for man.
Kenneson,
In John the only beginning under discussion is the beginning of man, the ones our Lord came to redeem. When the Word, the universe or anything else came into existence is not being discussed in the text.
Kenneson said: Col. 1:16 says that through Jesus all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist." This is not speaking of only things on earth: mankind. The Word is already in existence in the beginning. John 1:2
Again the all things under discussion by Paul are common human beings, governments both near and far away. They are even identified specifically as being: thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Words have multiple definitions and depth of meaning. In Col 1 Paul is comparing such humans outside the faith with those within the faith. In this case we learn that: 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. The all things, the humans now identified and described both inside and outside the faith is all that is being discussed. That many have misrepresented this text and abused the meaning of such words should be self evident.
Kenneson said: Heb. 1:3 depicts Jesus as being co-creator of the universe with the Father. Does it make sense to believe that Jesus existed in the beginning but that he didn't actually do anything until he made man?
Heb 1:3 says no such thing and one can only wonder where such theology came from. 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The worlds under discussion in Hebrews are the same worlds Paul described in detail in Col 1 and John described in John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Such worlds, human but by this time complex and divided into many civilizations are the worlds under discussion. All this talk about when the Word came into existence or even the angels amounts to nothing more than a distraction as it is not discussed in the texts. How the universe and this planet came into existence on the other hand is well covered as already shown by: Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
The finer detail however as to who created the human race on the earth that the LORD spredeth by himself should not get mixed up into the discussion. Even when the word God is used for the Word who was given this responsibility, no conflict exists as this designation of responsibility is also contained within the term God. The fact that God was with God in the beginning and given the task of creating us and later becoming human is proof enough that one of them, the one that became human in fact was not the Supreme Being but as we learned later would become our King (such Kings were called God in scripture). 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Authority, good or bad, real or imagined can be and is identified by the term God in the text. Perhaps some make too much of it when they try and use it to force identity instead its real application being that of authority.
Joseph
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JosephMalik
The Bible definitely says Jesus was created by God as His first creation.
Agape,
Look at the verse again and reason when reading the Bible as you suggested. In fact back up a bit to see who or what Paul is talking about in this verse.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the us here and what or when is the kingdom to which we are translated? Who are the ones that have redemption the forgiveness of sins through his blood? Christians the identity of most we do not yet know? Yes! And the one that will perform this task for us under discussion. Who is that person?
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Christ? Yes but not before this Christ died for us and was resurrected to become the firstborn of every creature (which creatures happen to be us)!
Just when this Jesus was created and identified initially as the Word is not being discussed in the texts. Why some insist on understanding it this way is the real mystery. Where is their proof? The word prototokos pro-tot-ok’-os does not say any such thing as it simply means:
AV-firstborn 7, first begotten 2; 9
1) the firstborn
1a) of man or beast
1b) of Christ, the first born of all creation
And the creation under discussion is the creation that will exist and live in the promised Kingdom yet to come.
Joseph
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lesterd
Wouldnt that support the trinity? Or was David Copperfield there..now you see it now you dont.