Those who enter paridise, how are their sins paid for?

drew sagan

The WTS teaches that when an individual physically dies he is 'aquitted' or 'set free' from sin. The verse they use to support this view is Romans 6:7 which reads:

7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

Since the JWs take the death spoken here as literal (instead of viewing it as 'death in Christ' which the context of the verse really shows) they are left with a big doctranal problem.

- If Jesus only dies for Adams sin (as they teach) and that we pay for our own sins when we die, how do those that enter 'the new system' without ever dying pay for their sins?

I have wondered often how JWs answer this question. I myself never really had a good explanation for it. I remember hearing the reasoning once that since those who enter the new world survive the great tribulation they pay for their sins that way. Is this how they view the subject?

Zico

It's an odd one. I think what the teaching is meant to be, God makes Adam and Eve imperfect. They have imperfect children. God can't make them perfect again, unless someone dies for them.

I think Jesus then covers the Great Crowd, the ones who don't die. Jehovah couldn't have made them perfect again if he hadn't used Jesus.

GramblingMan

Hey Drew,

I have been meaning to post this question on here, but I have been going back and forth with this JW that comes by my house, regarding this verse. I just can't see how you can apply it so simply and then disregard Revelations 20:12. He said that this verse was talking about the 1000 years but I showed him that the dead didn't live until a 1000 years was finished. We went in circles.

Finally-Free

how do those that enter 'the new system' without ever dying pay for their sins?

They have to earn their way in "this system" by peddling magazines and donating money. In the "new system" they will be put to work teaching "resurrected ones". Remember, "faith without works is dead."

W

drew sagan

So has there really been an explanation from Brooklyn on this, or does is simply go unanswered?

M.J.

Great question. In the original version of the story under Russell's Divine Plan, according to A People For His Name by Timothy White (p. 87), mankind who survived on earth into the millenium would fall under the judgment of the saints in heaven. "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?" (1 Cor 6:2) was used to back this up. Through this judgment, the church (in heaven) would actively punish each willful sin committed by mankind on earth, and apply the "benefits" of Christ's sacrifice to them, until they become "cleansed from all defilement". This was a sort of "purgatory" which eventually resulted in a restoration to perfection.

Unfortunately, the book didn't cite too many references here. But I see that the modern Bible Students still teach this: http://www.biblestudents.net/library/purgatory.htm

But of course this came from the standpoint that the people left on earth were all the unrighteous, not a "Godly Great Crowd".

When the Great Crowd on earth concept was initiated, I'm sure this judgment and cleansing aspect was toned down.

I'm interested in how this concept was modified by Rutherford.

Pahpa

The Scriptures are clear that it is only through Christ's sacrifice that men gain salvation. Peter said "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) So, regardless of when, where or how men enter into "paradise" their salvation will be entirely based upon that sacrifice.

M.J.

Now that I think about it, this question is related to the question of being "declared righteous". The whole thing is SO confusing and convoluted. But I'll take a stab at sorting it the "logic".

The wages of sin is death (Rom 3:23). Christ dies for Adam's sin, and according to the WTS this buys the human race an opportunity for life, without addressing the personal sin of every human. Non-JWs and JWs alike die for these personal sins but by virtue of being descendents of Adam, are given a free pass at a second chance at life...i.,e., resurrection (if they paid their own debt through death then what was the point again?).

However, Great Crowd members who survive into the "new system" don't pay for their own sins because they don't die, but have to wait until the end of the 1000 years to be declared righteous in "the complete sense" (Insight-1, p. 606, "Declare Righteous") According to Insight, being "declared righteous" means:

*** it-1 p. 603 Declare Righteous *** ...where the fullest explanation of the matter is found, basically carry the idea of absolving or clearing of any charge, holding as guiltless, and hence acquitting, or pronouncing and treating as righteous.

Which basically means your SINS ARE (finally) PAID FOR.

So presumably, those that are resurrected instantly have a clean slate in the "new system" having had their sins paid for. While Great Crowd members don't have their sins paid for until the end of the 1000 years.

But somehow Christ's sacrifice applies toward removing their personal sin during the 1000 years, which it couldn't do before the 1000 years for anyone.

Do I have this straight?

It's probably not worth trying to make sense of it in the first place.

drew sagan

That would be quite an amazing hunk of theology if that is what the WTS teaches on the matter M.J.!

The most obvious flaw in that reasoning is that the people who do not survive Armageddeon as well as all the 'ignorant' of the world actually recieve something better than the JWs who actually make it through. While the one group gets their perfection in an instant the other one has to work for it over 1000 years!

The question then comes up, what is the benefit of ever becoming a JW in the first place because if I died an ignorant fool I would get something even better.

RubaDub

MasterCard

The entrance to Paradise does not accept American Express.

Rub a Dub

Those who enter paridise, how are their sins paid for?

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