The JW lady came back/Who really is our Mediator?

by Guest with Questions 24 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  blondie

  So did they show you a scripture that said Jesus was the mediator for everyone, not just the anointed? The WTS teaches that Jesus corresponds to Moses as the mediator and that Moses mediated the law covenant between God and the Israelites.

  The WTS eaches that Jesus is the Greater Moses who mediates the New Covenant between God and spiritual Israelies, which the WTS defines as being only JWs who have the heavenly hope. All other JWs are not part of the New Covenant and thus Jesus is not their mediator.

  The confusion that most JWs have is that 1 Timothy 2:5 talks about Jesus being a mediator between God and men in reference to prayer. The WTS does teach that all people just pray through Christ as their "mediator."

  Most JWs get disturbed when either a non-JW or a JW points out that Jesus does not mediate for the JWs who do not go to heaven.

  If you can get a JW to get past their cognitive dissonance, they might admit that this is what is the official WTS doctrine. Most live in la-la land and shut their ears to any other explanation.

  The best thing to do is put the burder of proof on them. If they say Jesus is the mediator of everyone, they should be able to show a scripture or at least a quote from some WT publication.

  You have shown them excellent quotes...but I have found that JWs have thick skulls when it comes to understanding this.

  *** w03 2/15 p. 22 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf." (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’s name and made them part of Abraham’s "seed." (Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 15:14) This "everlasting covenant" provides for all spiritual Israelites to be resurrected to immortal life in heaven.—Hebrews 13:20.
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  MR. BORN AGAIN

  This is from the April 1, 2007 Watchtower. page 24, paragraph 12

  Emphasis added

  "A fundamental reason for showing PROPER RESPECT for the faithful slave class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master, Jesus Christ."

  "Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and it's Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave's Master."

  Sounds like the same thing as I was always taught. Obedience to the Governing Body = Obedience to Jesus. The teaching is the same, Just follow us, we'll be your Jesus...your salvation.
• 

  AK - Jeff

  The WTS does teach that all people just pray through Christ as their "mediator."

  I must kindly disagree with this, technically. They do teach that all prayer should be directed through Jesus, but I can find no reference to those prayers being addressed through the Mediator Jesus by the 'great crowd'. The language is often misleading, as it is in the Insight book;

  Insight on the Scriptures II - page 1107

  There is only one God and one mediator, Jesus Christ, so men offering prayers should lift up "loyal hands, apart from wrath and debates" (2:5-8)

  I believe that this was done deliberately to mislead. They mention Jesus as the Mediator, but then step off that line of reason, with the balance of the statement. The second part of the statement has no connection with the first, though I believe they want it to look that way.

  I have heard Witness men rebuked for addressing a congregational prayer outside the lines of doctrine, such as by concluding a prayer 'in the name of our Mediator, Jesus'. It may be oft overlooked, but it violates pure doctrine to do so.

  They teach that Jesus is the 'High Priest' of the earthly class;

  The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation 8-15-1989 Watchtower page 31

  Then they explain away any notion of His Mediatorship in the following paragraph;

  Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using "mediator" in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, "attorney") of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: "He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s."

  You need a map to get through some of this I am afraid.

  Bottom line: I don't believe that most Jw's even understand what they believe in this regard. The central issue to them is being in the 'truth' and directed by 'God's organization' - though they seem oblivious to the idolatrous implications of such.

  Jeff
• 

  bennyk

  So what do Jehovah Witnesses really believe?

  This is not unlike the question: "How long is a piece of string?". It really rather depends -- on the piece of string.

  Officially, the Watch Tower Society's teaching is that Jesus serves as Mediator of the New Covenant, and consequently is Mediator only for those in the New Covenant, viz. the 144 000. The "Other Sheep" are said to be under [emphatically, NOT in] the New Covenant; therefore Jesus cannot be their Mediator. However, in my (limited) experience, very few Witnesses actually believe this.

  In public prayer I not infrequently stated that the prayer was offered through our Mediator. On occasion (e.g. meals in our home), I actually apologized to guests for having done so. (I professed to be anointed while affiliated with the Watch Tower religion, and so did feel that Jesus was my Mediator.) Most Witnesses seemed entirely unaware of the Society's teaching. What was disturbing is how many also did not seem to care and would accept the Society's reasoning with no further consideration of the matter.
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  Quandry

  Most Witnesses seemed entirely unaware of the Society's teaching. What was disturbing is how many also did not seem to care and would accept the Society's reasoning with no further consideration of the matter.

  Well, you are right when you say that most do not understand the answer to the question. I know I didn't when I went. But it DID bother me. i DID care. It wasn't until about 2001 or so that I really began to understand that they were saying Jesus was not my mediator. But, of course, one is taught that you must "wait on Jehovah" to answer your questions and I felt more guilt for feeling too spiritually stupid to understand. So I really don't have a clear picture yet. Obviously, neither does the witness woman who just said, "I answered that last time I was here." You really must tell her to explain it too you again, because people are giving you conflicting answers and you are confused. I don't know what she'll do in this event, but please MAKE HER TELL YOU WHO HER MEDIATOR IS.
• 

  TopHat

  It is the 'watchtower org' Jws worship....Yep! That is what I have tried to tell my son to no avail.
• 

  Guest with Questions

  Their constant "tacking with the wind" and being able to accept whatever teachings they come up is tantamount to "following the christ". IMO

  This can cover a multitude of mistakes just like new light. As they were leaving, I asked the lady if they were as generous when another org or church made any mistakes.

  My understanding is that Russell was not the founder of the JW Org but the Bible Students and that Rutherford is the founder of the JW organization.

  It's a bit like trying to say Henry Ford didn't found the present Ford Motor Company.

  According to these sites they really want to distance themselves from the JW Org. So much for my mother telling me that they are all very united. It seems to me that, just like the church, there is separation.

  http://www.biblestudents.net/food4jws/wt_history/bsjw.htm

  http://www.nsbible.org/pastor_not_founder.htm

  *** w03 2/15 p. 22 What Does the Lord’’s Evening Meal Mean to You? *** Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf." (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’’s name and made them part of Abraham’’s "seed." (Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 15:14) This "everlasting covenant" provides for all spiritual Israelites to be resurrected to immortal life in heaven.——Hebrews 13:20.
  

  All Jews were under the Old Covenant and all people are under the New Covenant.

  I took a class at my church a while back about "Why Israel"

  God made four Unconditional Covenants with Israel: these covenants are eternal and everlasting. They were all (including the New Covenant) made with Israel. Paul says that Gentiles were once cut off from Israel’s covenants but now have been included through Jesus’ blood (Eph 2:11-13). Without Christ, were are on the outside looking in on God’s relationship with Israel. The roots of the tree we’ve been grafted into are the covenants God made with Israel.

  1. Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 12:1) The covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants.

  2. Israel Covenant (Gen 15:18-21; 17:7-8) The covenant of the Promised Land

  3. Davidic Covenant (2 Sam 7:12-13) The covenant of the Never-ending Kingdom

  4. New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33) The covenant of the Cross

  There was one Conditional Covenant: (Ex 19:5, 20:1-17, Deut 28:1-68) the Mosaic Covenant

  Thanks for all the responses. I do realize now that what the official teaching is about the Mediator is very different from what they tell "outsiders", and that most JW's probably don't realize what that teaching is, thinking that Jesus is the Great Crowd's Mediator. I do hope I get some feedback from my future posts. I may try to get this witness couple to come back if I have it all straight in my mind.
• 

  Guest with Questions

  sorry about blue font

  forgot to add:

  Replacement Theology: Separating the Bible into Old and New Testaments has resulted in Replacement Theology. There are those who argue that since Israel rejected Jesus as Messiah, all covenants (icluding the New Covenant) have been rendered null and void.

  But God said He would forgive Israel's iniquity (Jeremiah 31:32-34, Romans11:1-3

  God has not cast away His people. Romans 11:26-27

  May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation again, and God is regathering the Jewish people and restoring the land. Ezekial 36:36

  God is not finished with Israel - He is keeping all His covenant promises to the Jewish people. Zecheriah14, Romans 11:26
• 

  jschwehm

  When I was in the process of leaving the JWs, I told my JW mother that I had a problem with the JWs' teaching that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000 and how this contradicted 1 Timothy 2:5.

  My mother denied that the JWs ever taught this. So, I took out Watchtower after Watchtower and book after book that taught that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000. My mother was visibly shaken and my wife who was sitting their quietly told me that I had made my point and that we should drop it. So I did.

  This was the one and only time that any of my questions ever seemed to really get to her. My wife and I were both hopeful that this would lead to other doubts about the Watchtower for my Mom.

  Well, we were greatly disappointed.

  It turns out that my mother's congregation was having their Circuit Overseer's visit that week and that my mother talked to the Circuit Overseer about the issue.

  Well, after the CO's visit was over, my mother says to me.....

  'I talked to the CO about Jesus being our mediator. He said that technically you are correct that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000 but that if I want to view Jesus as my personal mediator I can.

  Then the CO told her that 'apostates only bring this stuff up to cause trouble'.

  After that she really would not talk to me about anything doctrinal issues again. (I guess I was labeled as bad association at that point.)

  Oh, well..............

  Jeff S.

  www.catholicxjw.com
• 

  heathen

  Then the CO told her that 'apostates only bring this stuff up to cause trouble'.

  Unbelievable copout there . Just demonize people that want to know where they stand on issues is easier than digging thru piles of publications and explaining all the flip flops in dogma . So far the articles that have been quoted on this thread show them saying that christ mediates for the 144k only but do not say the great crowd are not included , so people with limited knowledge of WTBTS dogma might get confused as to what they actually believe . As we are finding out most are confused and giving yes and no answers based on something they may have read somewhere. The best thing you could do is to call brooklyn information and get the latest "light" on the issue. Christ is probly mediator for the book publishing corporation alone according to them...........