Whyizit you have picked out some basic contradictions in the JW ideology but according to Revelation death will not be done away with until after the millenial rule after those resurrected will have been tested and the unworthy (those found following satan) handed over to the second and irreversible death. On the other hand as you and others pointed out there is no such thing as paradise earth in the Bible where the blessed will be confined, the saints will not be resurrected until the return of Christ which obviously hasn't yet occured because we have never seen the accompanying rapture of the living saints, and the dead other than the saints will not be raised until after the 1000 year rule has ended, not through its duration. These are some of the gross doctrinal errors taught by the JWs.
Question about 144,000-- heaven at death?
by whyizit 16 Replies latest jw friends
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heathen
whyizit-- You are right the resurrection is more of a recreation and not the bringing back of the body one has died in.
If all the people get resurrected, except those who have left or been kicked out of the WTS, and there is no longer death in the world, how does God get rid of the ones who reject the teachings? Since death is no longer an option, what happens?
I've heard their dogma on that and they believe that they will again grow old and die . There are 2 deaths mentioned in Revelation , the second one being for all time . The bible doesn't mention growing old and dying the second time but rather there is a rebellion to which God steps in and destroys all people attacking his followers .
And how do those who have lived on into the new pure earth account for their sins? Sins they have not died, aren't they coming in to the new world with a bunch of sin in their lives? It doesn't make much sense to me. that sinful beings would be able to live on in a perfect world and teach others, when they are still in a sinful state. Or the idea that evil people, like Hitler, get to come back again, while someone who got booted out of the WTS for smoking is not allowed to come back.
The belief is that people can repent their sins and thus have them removed prior to entering the new earth .Also people are allowed back in the cult if they are willing to put up with the very childish six months of being shunned and have ceased doing their sinful behaviour.
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yaddayadda
Heathen said: "I've heard their dogma on that and they believe that they will again grow old and die"
That is incorrect. JW's don't teach that in the 'new system' anyone flagrantly wicked will grow old again. They basically just say that they will somehow be killed by God but that the bible doesn't give us any details on how that happens. -
whyizit
People can't die anymore, but yet God is going to kill them.....
Uh.....okay.
Thanks to every one for helping me to at least see what kind of respose I will get should I ever ask any of my JW friends about this. Will the look of utter confusion on my face make them think I am an idiot, or do you think they will see that it isn't making a bit of sense? Maybe a little of both.
Your great people and I appreciate your honesty and insights on my questions. Thanks so much!
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Leolaia
But exactly when do these folks get to go to heaven? If it is immediately upon their death, then WHAT part of them goes to heaven? If they are non-existent upon death and don't have souls, what part do they figure is going to be in heaven?
Good question. I would think it is no part of them. Since those who are "resurrected" to appear on a "paradise earth" have no essential connection to the people who had died, I would think it is the same for those having a "spiritual resurrection"....these are simply new spirit beings that are created at the moment an "anointed" person dies, who are given the memories and personalities of them. After all, this is what they believe happened to Jesus, who was "resurrected" (or rather, re-created) as a spirit being.
The resurrection that JWs refer to isn't actually a resurrection, but it is actually a re-creation of some kind, right? Some are re-created into similar beings like they were before death, some are re-created into spirit beings. Is that what you are saying?
That is correct.
I always had the impression that resurrection means "to stand again". What once was alive, is alive again. Like when Lazarus was raised from the dead. He wasn't a spirit creature, he wasn't re-created, he was raised from the dead literally. He was exactly who and what he was before he died.
Right. The actual belief in early Christianity and Judaism was that resurrection was a person's return to life and that some part of the person, whether body, soul, spirit, etc., would survive death and would be restored in the resurrection. However, it often was not a matter of an exact restoration of a person. In many cases, it was a better existence, with the body having greater glory, splendor, imperishability, etc. That was Paul's view in 1 Corinthians 15.
If all the people get resurrected, except those who have left or been kicked out of the WTS, and there is no longer death in the world, how does God get rid of the ones who reject the teachings? Since death is no longer an option, what happens?
The Society does not say that death is no longer an option during the resurrection, which they construe as occurring throughout the millennial "judgment day". It is during this time that people are judged on the basis of their deeds following their resurrection, and they will all be "tested" when Satan is set loose from his abyss. So, presumably, there will be people who will become unfaithful and will be killed again when "Gog of Magog" is finally destroyed.
I should also say a word about what the conception is in Revelation itself. This book does have a concept of "heaven at death" that precedes the general resurrection. Martyrs are depicted as residing in heaven waiting for their own number to be complete, i.e. before the persecution or "great tribulation" has ended.
"When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, 'Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?' Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little longer, until the roll was complete and their fellow servants and brothers had been killed just as they had been" (Revelation 6:9-11).
Since the persecution (instigated in ch. 12-13 by Satan and the Beast) is still ongoing, the vision is of a scene that precedes the resurrection of these souls in ch. 20. The description of the dead "souls" resembles the "Great Crowd" of ch. 7. Thus here we have "the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of God's word", i.e. martyrs like those who come out of the "great tribulation" (a phrase that implies that they died in the great tribulation), the saints who keep the commandments and die in 14:12-13, and especially "the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and the word of God" in 20:4. Like those in the "Great Crowd", they are "given a white robe" (cf. 7:9, 14). And like the "Great Crowd" in the "sanctuary" in 7:15 and "in heaven" in 19:1, the dead souls are located "underneath the altar". The altar is the golden altar of incense mentioned in 8:3-5 and 9:13, located inside the Holy of Holies ("the sanctuary") of the heavenly Temple, which corresponds to the altar of incense in the early Temple or tabernacle upon which the sacrificial blood was poured out on Yom Kippur and incense burned on top of it (Exodus 30:1-10; Leviticus 4:7; Hebrews 9:4). This suggests that the martyrdom of the faithful was atoning as an expiatory sacrifice and the "souls" of the dead are thus offered up on the heavenly altar. The belief that martyrdom constitutes a sacrificial offering is also attested in 2 Maccabees 7:37-38, 4 Maccabees 6:28-29, 2 Timothy 4:6, Ignatius Romans 2:2, 4:2, and in the Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:1-2.
Note that the word used to refer to the "souls" of the dead martyrs is psukhas, a clear instance in the NT of psukhé "soul" being used to refer to a disembodied person after death. There are many Jewish and Christian sources that claim that the souls of the dead wait in heaven for their later resurrection. Joseph and Asenath 15:7 refers to "a place of rest in the heavens" (cf. 8:11, 22:13), 1 Enoch mentions a "treasury of souls ... with the holy angels ... underneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits" in "the ultimate ends of the heavens" (39:3-7), the Testament of Abraham refers to the "tents of my righteous ones and the mansions of my holy ones" in the "bosom" of Abraham in heavenly Paradise, where the patriarchs ascended after death (A:20:14), the gospel of Luke similarly refers to a "bosom of Abraham" were the pious Lazarus went upon death (16:19-31), Paul mentioned his hope of going to heaven when his "earthly tent is destroyed" and departed from his body (2 Corinthians 5:1-10), and Josephus reports that "the souls without blemish ... receive the most holy place in heaven" until "the ages come round again" and they "come back again to live in holy bodies" (Jewish War, 3.8.5).
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heathen
exactly , they will think you are not "meek" and simply oppose the "truth". They do realize there is a second death but the dogma they come up with for the post millenium doesn't quite work out scripturally. After the second death, then death is no more .
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Numinous
The idea that those who have been DFed are the only ones throughout all of the history of mankind who will not receive a resurrection and are considered wicked, yet those who would by their terms be considered unrighteous, i.e. ignorant of WT doctrine, get a pass. Hitler, some say, fits into this category. So ironic when Hitler makes the god of the Bible look like Little Bo Peep. 144,000 to help Jesus in the last days...to do WHAT is an even bigger question.