The disturbing thing about ALL religions

by Leander 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  JanH

  I will have to say one more thing about this thread: It is too easy to generalize experiences from a subset of religion (JWdom, or Christianity generally) and apply this to all the world's religions. Religions are so varied and different from each other that no generalization can cover them all.

  People in the west will naturally think of "God" or "gods" when they talk about religion, but that is a near-sighted view. Many religions do not have gods, do not have sin, do not believe in afterlife, etc, etc.

  - Jan
  --
  "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Jan,

  You said,
  

  The problem with postulating a super-being like God, is that you can't excuse God from the consequences of his rules. If God made the universe, all the rules of the game were created by him. He is thus morally responsible for both the game and its rules.

  More Properly YOU can't excuse God, I on the other hand find no reason to excuse him. Yes, God did set up the rules, when we violate them there are consequences. Am I morally responsible for the choices my children make? No more so, is God.

  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
• 

  JanH

  Yeru,

  More Properly YOU can't excuse God, I on the other hand find no reason to excuse him. Yes, God did set up the rules, when we violate them there are consequences. Am I morally responsible for the choices my children make? No more so, is God.

  You dodge the issue here, engaging in a debate form that is not fully fair. Look back at your own message, and the one you were replying to.

  The issue was whether Adam's offspring was punished by God (assuming the western-Christian interpretation of "original sin" in the Bible). You asserted it wasn't, I demonstrated that they were, and you implicitly admit that fact above. You seem to be introducing a red herring here.

  True, you are not responsible for your children's decisions. And if your children meet consequences for bad decisions you have warned them against, and those consequences are outside your control (like burning themselves on a hot stove), then I agree you cannot normally be held responsible for those.

  But if you inflict punishments for bad decisions, you are certainly responsible for those punishments. If you decide to torture or even kill your own children over a bad decision (like, stealing an apple!), then you are morally (and legally) responsible for that. You cannot push the decision to punish, which was yours alone, onto your children.

  And, of course, for the postulated Christian God, nothing is outside his control. Any negative consequence for any violation of his rules are de facto punishments from God.

  This is the facts christian apologists desperately try to dodge.

  Eagerly awaiting the next red herring

  - Jan
  --
  "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
• 

  Leander

  Yerusalyim - I can understand why you reason the way you do. People should have to answer for their actions and deal with the consequences. However should the entire planet need to suffer because of the mistakes of 2 people? Should all of mankind be mislead and antagonized by powerful and wicked spirit beings?

  To illustrate lets say you built a house for your spouse and your 8 kids. You and the spouse decided to go away on vacation and left the 2 oldest children in charge. While you were away those 2 children damaged the house, they destroyed the electrical and plumbing system and in addition to all of those things they tormented their younger siblings. On returning to the house would you simply allow all of the children to suffer the consequences of the older two or would you punish the two who were responsible and allow the other children to be judged or dealt with on their own merit.

  I would say most loving parents if not all, would do all they could to make sure the innocent children were taken out of that situation.

  This is what makes me doubt the bible

  JanH - Good point I should been more specific instead of saying all religions
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Leander,

  What you failed to report in your story about leaving the kids is that all 8 kids then began to throw rocks through the windows, break the furniture, etc. Now, dad came home, HE took the punishment, but can't fix the house until the kids stop tearing it up.

  Jan
  You're still tied up in this issue of the WTS seeing being cut off from God as torture, it isn't. In reality, keeping our free will, if we were then forced to be with God even though we didn't want to be, THAT would be torture.

  As it is, God has created a place where we can, if we so choose, be left to our own selfish devices.

  Also Jan, I wasn't attempting to debate so much as give another perspective. Contention does NOT have to exist when view points are different.

  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
• 

  Introspection

  Hi Leander,

  Just a reply to your first message here. That does appear to be the case with many Judeo-Christian churches, and actually even some other traditions as well.

  I would suggest that we examine this issue from the perspective of human behavior. Fear is a very primative instinct, and frankly it is simply not a very enlightened way of behaving if that is the motivation that is driving a person. While I wouldn't agree with things like repressing your sexual drive, I would point out a difference between using our mind rather than going with these basic instincts.. For example, most people wouldn't want to have sex with a real jerk. Even when there's an opportunity to satisfy that urge, most people do have their standards.

  That's just one example. But for me what it comes down to is if I am in control of myself, it doesn't matter if witnesses or anybody else use fear as an appeal - because I have removed that trigger. It depends on the group I think, the particular church/organization you might associate with, and what they emphasize. On the other end of the extreme is the "lets do whatever we want" approach. Well, realistically that wouldn't differentiate a religious group from anyone else, other than they believe in this and that.. You might also question whether the moral teachings and such have any practical value too if it's just all about us being imperfect. (which always seems to be a nice excuse for an organization..)

  This can be tricky I think, because there's a tendancy to think of discipline as another type of conditioning. Granted practice in any type of discipline is essential, but I think what it comes down to is that it's an unconditioned mental function. I think this is possible, and when you have such a frame of mind these fear based religions will be seen as nothing more than the silly foolishness that they are. You still care about those who are hurt, but you are not reacting to them - it comes straight from the heart.
• 

  ashitaka

  I love my wife, and I think that's all I can do as an insignificant being, just love what you can, and hope there is someone to hold us when we need it. It's a lonely world, even with all of the people in it. It's hard to know what God wants, even with the bible. People may not believe in the bible, and that may be a relief for them, but I know somehow that God exists...and that we are somehow accountable to him, even if accountability means just his pleasure or displeasure in us. I don't think I'd care to be in a world with no God. It's frightening think to think of all the gargantuan galaxies, stars, and beings aren't ruled by SOMETHING.

  Religion may be wrong, but God can't be. I just think we havn't found him yet.

  "I pray that I may never see the desert again-hear me God."-Robert Bolt
• 

  Leander

  Ashitaka - I can defintiely relate to how you feel. I'd hate to think that there is no God as well. But its really confusing to know what is right or wrong.

  There are many, many JW's who are convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that they have the truth. But then on the other hand you have just as many people from other religions who have that same belief in their faith.

  Part of me believes that JW's is the right religion and the other part is doubtful. There are a lot of positive things that the org has accomplished and done but there are just enough negative things going now and in the past to make you wonder whats really the truth.

  Also I find it odd that the Society rarely mentions their mistakes from the past. If this is truly God's organization there should'nt be anything to hide, but it looks like thats exactly whats going on in the WTS. They seem to be quietly trying to cover up certain things.
• 

  Kophagangelos

  My opinion: I have conviction that Jehovah is the really person and not guilty for the corruption for the religion on the earth! He loves all mankind and I cannot understand the doctrine of WTS that the mankind on the world would die if they know not Jehovah! I cannot imagine that Jehovah will destruct all if he send his son on the earth to save the human if they want to believe him. Much people live good same JW and they have the chance to survive! Some details of the WTS are good because it is from the bible! That is the positive thing and I will keep it! the bibel is for me a source of the truth and not the doctrine of WTS!