Does Isaiah 25:8 indicate Jews expected to live forever on earth?

by jwfacts 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jwfacts

  The Watchtower uses two scriptures from Isaiah as proof of people living forever on paradise earth.

  Isaiah 65:17-25 actually does not say people will live forever, in fact the opposite, it says man will fulfill his days and die.

  “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth ; and the former things will not be called to mind , neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, YOU people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating. For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation. 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people; and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.” 20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age ; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him

  How about Isa 25:8. Was this understood by Jews or Christians that death would cease?

  (Isaiah 25:8) . . .He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].
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  Pahpa

  In Revelation, John links it with New Jerusalem (Rev. 21) that comes "down out of heaven." He says: "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them.....There will be no more death or mourning or crying for pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
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  Hellrider

  It`s poetry, and must be understood partly on the reality they were living in, with people dying at a young age, and partly on the basis of the legends of the life spans of Adam and the first generations after creation. The Isaiah-text doesn`t really refer to "eternal life", it refers to "really long life spans", peace, justice, etc, all the things they were lacking, which God would eventually provide. On the other hand, to people who couldn`t expect to live past 30, a hundred years must have been considered to be an "eternity".
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  Narkissos

  This passage belongs to the so-called "Great Apocalypse" of Isaiah (chapters 24--27) which is generally recognised as one of the latest additions to the "Isaiah collection". It then dates to a period when Jewish eschatology was going through considerable development (even though apocalyptic imagery feeds on age-old polytheistic mythemes, such as Mot, the god of death, as a monster with a big mouth swallowing everybody, whence the paradoxical expression of 25:8 -- Mot isswallowed).

  As a very general remark, I would say that this picture (just as most final pictures in later apocalypticism) is the motionless picture of a horizon. Time freezes at the end of the story. Even "and they lived happy ever after" at the end of a tale actually rules out any further "event" (by a literary convention which makes "SnowWhite 2" or "Cinderella 2" always a bit disappointing). So the picture of the final banquet and the "death of Death" in this passage, or the New heavens and New Earth, New Jerusalem and "Paradise" in the Apocalypse of John. Picturing them as an everlasting continuation of time misses the point. But we are far from the ancient concepts of "eternity" as opposed to "time". This is, I think, where the JW representation of "Paradise earth" most deeply departs from ancient apocalypticism.
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  jwfacts

  understood partly on the reality they were living in

  Your comment ties in well with Isa 65. It was a promise that God would bless them with full and bounteous lives.

  "neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age"

  Isa 25 is not specific in regards to this being an earthly hope, so when related to Rev 21 could refer to the new heavens and earth.
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  jwfacts

  and they lived happy ever after

  That makes a lot of sense Nark. Even JWs do not profess to know in detail beyond the 1000 years. Earthly paradise seems great for a millenium, but becomes tedious and boring when stretched to eternity. The Bible itself is silent as to exactly what to expect from an eternity in heaven.
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  Leolaia

  Yeah, I wrote a great thoroughly researched thread ("Growing Old and Dying on Paradise Earth") on this very text...you may be quite interested in it:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85470/1.ashx

  Good luck trying to access it. I cannot access it myself and the moderators say that it has been corrupted. I cannot locate any copies on my hard drive or on Google or the Wayback Machine.

  In part, I showed how the Watchtower interpretation of the verse as referring to rebellion is a complete misunderstanding of the Hebrew, which is necessary if they want to use the overall text to refer to eternal life on a paradise earth. I also pointed to an interesting verse in 1 Enoch that showed how the hope was often one of long-lived life like the antediluvian patriarchs, as it is here, not individual "eternal life". The point is "completing one's days", not dying before your time, but having a full, complete life. One does not complete one's days if one lives forever.

  Wish I still had that post, was a favorite of mine.
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  Borgia

  Hi Jwfacts, I found the follwing quotes: Jewish encycloepdia under ressurrection: Like all ancient peoples, the early Hebrews believed that the dead go down into the underworld and live there a colorless existence (comp. Isa. xiv. 15-19; Ezek. xxxii. 21-30). Only an occasional person, and he an especially fortunate one, like Enoch or Elijah, could escape from Sheol, and these were taken to heaven to the abode of Yhwh, where they became angels (comp. Slavonic Enoch, xxii.). In the Book of Job first the longing for a resurrection is expressed (xiv. 13-15), and then, if the Masoretic text may be trusted, a passing conviction that such a resurrection will occur (xix. 25, 26). The older Hebrew conception of life regarded the nation so entirely as a unit that no individual mortality or immortality was considered. Jeremiah (xxxi. 29) and Ezekiel (xviii.) had contended that the individual was the moral unit, and Job's hopes are based on this idea.

  A different view, which made a resurrection unnecessary, was held by the authors of Ps. xlix. and lxxiii., who believed that at death only the wicked went to Sheol and that the souls of the righteous went directly to God. This, too, seem based on views analogous to those of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and probably was not widely held. In the long run the old national point of view asserted itself in the form of Messianic hopes. These gave rise to a belief in a resurrection in order that more might share in the glory of the Messianic kingdom. This hope first finds expression in Isa. xxvi. 19, a passage which Cheyne dates about 334 B.C. The hope was cherished for faithful Israelites. In Dan. xii. 1-4 (about 165 B.C.) a resurrection of "many . . . that sleep in the dust" is looked forward to. This resurrection included both righteous and wicked, for some will awake to everlasting life, others to "shame and everlasting contempt."

  They then go on to discuss pharasaic, sadducaic, essenic and other rabbinic traditions in this respect. However, it does not concern itself with the influence of zoroatrism on this particular issue. It is of interest that they do note a difference of opinion about the nature of ressurrection of the early hebrews and the later ones.

  Cheers

  Borgia
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  jwfacts

  Thanks Borgia. There seems little to suggest Jews believed in eternal earthly life.

  Leo I remember the thread well. I had wanted to ask more in regards to your opinion on Isa 25:8 at the time I read it so it is dissappointing it no longer can be accessed.