Archangel Michael ...

by jelcat8224 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jelcat8224
    jelcat8224

    To be honest I don't really care whether they believe Jesus is Michael or not. (It matters not to me since I know what I believe about Jesus) All I am interested in, are the subtle shifts they try to make, no matter how small. I am trying to build my armory against them right now so I can have as much as possible to show my family. Therefore I am looking for every tiny morsel.

    Again ... this whole topic of them moving away from this teaching may or may not be purely speculation, but I think it's worth watching.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    In that case jelcat8224 you may be more interested in the process by which they conclude that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Their biggest argument is that things said of Michael are also said of Jesus, thus they must be the same person.

    A basic question to ask is 'How do we know that Michael the Archangel is Jesus?'. They will then reveal to you this process. You can then repeat this 'scritural rule' that they tell you, and get them to agree that this is the correct process by which to view the scriptures.

    Then show them the many scriptures where Jehovah is said of being or doing something excactly like Jesus is said of.

    Because they have no real method for understanding the scriptures the 'rules' they fabricate can corner them many times over.

  • jelcat8224
    jelcat8224

    Drew: That is a very good point. I have actually done something very similar to that regarding the teaching, or lack thereof, of hellfire. I actually had a very good friend of mine practice with me. We reversed roles. He was to argue against hellfire using only the bible, and I was to argue for hellfire using only the bible. It was interesting because I had always been so used to arguing against the doctrine that when I was put on the other side of the issue, I ws AMAZED to see how easy it was to teach hellfire from the bible!!!

    I think I will try your method with this one too!

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    Why do you ask? To ridicule (as most here) or to learn? Mad

    The truth about your masters of the Watchtower and the demon god from hell they serve is a hard pill to swallow, isn't it.

  • pollyana
    pollyana

    Yea, educate me too. I need to learn as much as possible before I host my Morg'n'Borg house party!

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Interesting facts about Michael and Jesus:

    1:) Michael the Archangel, while in heaven, did NOT have the authority to rebuke Satan. (Jude 1:9)

    2:) When Jesus came to earth as a Man, after He "emptied Himself" and "Humbled Himself" and took on the "form of a servant," (in a much lower position than He had in heaven), Jesus DID have the authority to rebuke Satan and the demons. (See John 17:5 and Philippians 2:5-11 to see that Jesus had a lesser position while on earth than He had while in heaven).

    Therefore, Jesus is NOT Michael. Otherwise, why would Jesus have had LESS authority when He was in His original exalted position of glory next to The Father than He had while on earth in the position of a "slave"?

    Also, Colossians 1:16 says that Jesus Christ created ALL angels, therefore, He would definitely have had authority to rebuke His own creation (Satan).

    The book of Daniel calls Michael "One of the chief princes." Jesus would not be called "one of the chief princes" -- Jesus is always called The Unique, One-and-Only, Only-Begotten Son, the Visible Image of the Invisible God. Jesus is not merely "one of the chief princes," as if others were equal to Him.

    Plus, Hebrews chapter One absolutely declares that Jesus Christ is NOT a created angel:

    Hebrews 1:1-14 (ESV):

    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire." But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

  • The Dragon
    The Dragon

    What is the difference between an angel and an archangel? Hell we do not even know that....

    Would be like trying to figure out and tell everyone why Carrol Shelby liked racing stripes on mustangs..after he was dead or otherwise unavailable to answer the question.

    Hey...why we are at it...what was Jimmy Hoffa's last words?

    Wanna take a guess and present it as a fact too? lol

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think the point in Jude is about using abusive speech other than anything else being discussed about it. It says he did not bring judgement against the devil with abusive speech.

  • The Dragon
    The Dragon

    When you are right...you do not have to resort to abusive speech, threats, or a gun to win the disagreement. imo

  • glenster
    glenster

    The JWs leaders' teach that Jesus is a created being, archangel Michael, and
    not to be worshipped. This view is required by the JWs leaders for membership
    in the JWs and salvation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

    In Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1, Michael is one of the chief princes who helps Ga-
    briel in a fight with the angel of Persia, and who is a great prince who stands
    up for the children of Israel.

    "Arch" refers to Dan.10:13; 12:1 and means "chief." "Angel" means "messen-
    ger." Archangel means chief messenger.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel

    According to the Wikipedia article at the link given above, that Michael's
    name means "Who Is Like God?" is an uncertain possibility.

    No other archangels are named in the Bible, but the same area of research (see
    the Wikipedia article on archangel Michael) indicates that Michael is given as
    one of the chief princes in Daniel because Jewish culture believed in a number
    of archangels. The JWs leaders' stance is that Michael was the only archangel,
    but they only use related history to make the facts fit the theory (Ante-Nicene
    fathers, cross, lately agreeing with science about the age of the world, etc.),
    in this case to force that Jesus is Michael.

    At Daniel 12:1,2 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard
    over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress
    such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that
    time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
    Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlast-
    ing life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

    At Joshua 5:13-15, "Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he
    lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with
    his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, 'Are you
    for us or for our adversaries?' He said, 'No; rather I indeed come now as cap-
    tain of the host of the LORD.' And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and
    bowed down, and said to him, 'What has my lord to say to his servant?'" The
    captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, 'Remove your sandals from your feet,
    for the place where you are standing is holy.' And Joshua did so."

    The man with the sword, captain of the host of the Lord, is not named. Joshua
    calls him "Lord" and worships/does obeisance to him. The man says the ground is
    holy.

    Since the man isn't named, either the mainstream historical view or the JWs
    leaders' view can imagine the man was Jesus. The JWs leaders' view would have
    the problem (as at Heb.1:6) of Michael/Jesus recieving worship/obeisance though
    that's not to be done in monotheism to a "god" (NWT John 1:1) (Ex.34:14).

    Theophanies--the speaker talked to an angel then realized they were talking to
    God--God spoke through an angel using the angel as the mechanism, and for the
    appearance, to do it with. There are examples with Hagar, Abraham, and Moses in
    the Wikipedia article at the next link.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany

    One of the distinctions of 1st century Jewish monotheism was that only God was
    to be worshipped. Jesus recieves worship (NWT: obeisance) in the NT (Matt.28:9,
    17; Luke 24:52; Heb.1:6; compare John 2:28; Rev.22:3). Anyone else it's offered
    to tells the one offering it not to do it except at Matt.18:26, where Jesus
    tells of a slave who did it desperately begging his lord not to sell him. The
    mainstream view is stronger in not having any worship/obeisance done to a god.

    For Rev.22:3: at 1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is called wisdom: "Christ the power
    of God and the wisdom of God." Wisdom at Prov.8:22-31 was thought to be God's
    Wisdom (like the Greek's logos) symbolized as a person. The God and Wisdom
    verses set a scriptural precedent for the God and Logos or God and Jesus verses
    to be seen the mainstream way. At Rev.22:3, the mainstream view can use worship
    "them" (God and Jesus") or worship "him" (God, which includes Jesus). The JWs
    leaders' view has a problem with Jesus sitting on God's throne as a way to iden-
    tify Michael verses the mainstream view of Jesus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_the_Logos

    At 1 Thess.4:16, Jesus appears again by the word "archangel": "For the Lord
    Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel
    and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

    The JWs leaders' claim that it's Jesus' voice. The verse doesn't clarify
    whether it's Jesus' voice or an accompanying voice, or, if imagined to be Jesus'
    voice, is meant literally. There would need to be an identity connection made
    elsewhere and there isn't one. Instead, at Rev.19:16,17, while the King of
    Kings descends, apostle John "also saw an angel standing in the sun, and he
    cried out with a loud voice."

    At Jude 1:9, archangel Michael couldn't rebuke the devil but deferred to the
    Lord to do it. So not only doesn't the Bible call Michael Jesus, but in a "one
    Lord" Christianity with Jesus also called the one Lord, Michael deferred to the
    Lord. This isn't how to identify Michael as Jesus. "But Michael the archangel,
    when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare
    pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

    The JWs leaders' view might be that Jesus couldn't rebuke the Devil till

    John 5:22: "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judg-
    ment to the Son."

    But at 2 Pet 2:10b,11: "Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they re-
    vile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not
    bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord."

    Heb.1:3-8,13; 2:5 God didn't tell an angel "you are my Son," (as in "the Son
    of God" compared to angels called "Sons of God"; the mainstream view has someone
    more unique called "Son" than an angel or even archangel). God calls Jesus God
    (or tells him God is his throne--Jesus can sit on God like he's Santa, I guess
    symbolic of Jesus having his seat of authority on God's lap, although I don't
    remember that symbolism used anywhere else), and God didn't subject the world to
    angels.

    Hebrews 1:6 "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
    'and let all the angels of God worship him.'" (NWT: "do obeisance to") (The JWs
    leaders' view is that Jesus is a "god" at John 1:1, but at Ex.34:14 one of the
    definitions of Jewish monotheism is that followers aren't to worship/do obei-
    sance to a "god.") Compare with:

    Angels aren't to be worshipped, and an archangel is a chief angel

    Col.2:18 "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-
    abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has
    seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind."

    Rev.19:10 (attempted worship of an angel): "Then I fell at his feet to worship
    him. But he said to me, 'Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and
    your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony
    of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'" Also see Rev.22:9.

    At Rev.12:7-9, archangel Michael and his angels fight the dragon and his an-
    gels.

    The dragon thrown from heaven connects with "abomination that causes desola-
    tion" at Dan.9:27.

    The reader could connect Dan.12:1,2 with this, but the connection isn't made
    with Michael and Jesus. In subsequent verses, Christ, the Lamb, and Jesus are
    mentioned without identifying Michael as Jesus by name, common action, or guar-
    anteed implication. In Revelation, Jesus returns to lead the heavenly host at
    Armageddon in Rev.19, but it's not given as the fight by archangel Michael who
    leads the angels to cast Satan to Earth in Rev.12:7-9.

    Jesus is called Jesus, Christ, the Lamb, Alpha and Omega, etc., in other sec-
    tions--a multiple choice of things Michael isn't called. If the author wanted
    to express that Michael became Jesus, he'd just write "Michael is Jesus," which
    doesn't appear anywhere, not use "Michael" as for an alternate person, which
    John did as the mainstream view would.

    The idea of Jesus as Michael is imaginable in some ways but with problems (the
    Bible never calls one the other, connecting the two isn't needed to make sense
    of anything) that would preclude it being assumed to be a Biblically guaranteed
    connection. The JWs leaders play prophet in requiring a follower to make the
    connection for salvation.

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