Thanks you all, Im gonna try to postpone the Trinity discussion until next week, Im gonna let them go through their spiel about how the KJV inconsistently rendered the greek word for hell, and the grave. Im gonna get them to bring a kingdom interlinear next time so they can show me, and then I can show them that they have inconsistently rendered Jesus/Jehovah in the trinity scriptures. You all see what Im trying to do? pretty sneaky huh???
Need some help re:Trinity scriptures
by Junction-Guy 13 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Shazard
BTW IF... IF it is possible, record every of their own words. Coz JW are with ery bad memory. Today they can say one thing, and next they they will say contrary thing! So if you would have their own words recorded, you could use them against them. JW did (and still is doing) pretty decend work of documenting their own blunder and falsehood, so deeper they go into their lies, more clearly their lies manifest!
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AK - Jeff
Personally, I would prefer to mount an attack using the KIT/NWT, against the 144,000. This shatters a deeply held class system in the Jw religion. I had never seen the KIT renderings that put the 'great crowd' in the 'divine habitation' with God, as a Jw. But it would have started my doubts much earlier if I had.
Trinitarians never bothered me. The subject was too deep and complicated for most Jw minds to begin with, so it easily blown off by them. IMO.
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
Jeff
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HappyDad
Dave,
Just a few weeks ago a lady at the church I attend wanted this exact same info because her JW cousin was always preaching the "truuf" to her and she wanted ammunition to preach back. If you need more information, just Google these three words together.....JENOVAH'S WITNESSES TRINITY........and you will find a ton of it.
Here is just some of the info I got...............
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/jw-trin.html
http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=696
The following might help too. (copied from a web site)
Effective Verses to Show that Jesus IS Jehovah
NT authors frequently used OT passages that referred to Jehovah in reference to the Son.
· Isaiah 6:1 with John 12:37-41.
· Psalm 102:25-27 with Hebrews 1:10 (also: Isa. 8:12-13 with 1 Peter 3:14-15; Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10; Joel 2:32 with Rom. 10:13).
John 1:1
John 1:1a
indicates that the Word was eternal: en arche en ho logos, "In [the] beginning was the Word. . . ." The Greek verb en, "was" is an imperfect tense, which indicates that the Word was always existing (cf. Phil. 2:6: hosen morphe theou huparchon, lit.,"[Christ Jesus] who in nature God subsisting").At John 1:1b (lit., "the Word was withthe God"), the eternal Word is said to be distinct (pros, "with") from His Father. Then, at John 1:1c, John literally writes: "God was the Word" (theos en ho logos). Note that the Apostle John places theos ("God") in the *emphatic position* (i.e., at the beginning of the clause) and theos is anarthrous (i.e., without the article ["the"]).
Thus, John clearly indicates here that (a) the eternal Word was "God" in the fullest sense (hence, he places theos ["God"] in emphatic position) and (b) John purposely presents theos as anarthrous, that is, he does not include the article ("the") before theos as in John 1:1b (speaking of the Father). Hence, theos is *qualitative* pointing to the Word's nature as fully God, not His identity. Qualitative nouns refer to description, not identification (cf. John 1:14; 4:24; 1 John 1:5). For if John had written: "The God was the Word" (ho theos en ho logos) he would have then indicated that the Word was the same God (same Person or identity) as "God" in John 1:1b--the Father!
Thus, John precludes an indefinite rendering ("a god" as in the NWT) by places theos in the empathic position and safeguards against modalism (Oneness theology) that asserts Jesus is the Father.
In conclusion: John 1:1 teaches that (a) the Word is eternal (1:1a: "In [the] beginning was [en] the Word), (b) the Word is eternally distinct from the Father (1:1b: the Word was with [pros] God), and (c) as to the Word's essential nature, He is God in the fullest sense (1:1c: lit., "God [theos] was the Word").
For more details on John 1:1 and an analysis of the Watchtower's indefinite rendering of theos in John 1:1c ("a god" NWT), see John 1:1 .
Jesus is called "The God" (o qeoj, ho theos):
John 20:28
Thomas said to Jesus (direct address): ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou, lit. "the Lord of me and the God of me" (see the WT’s own Greek interlinear called: TheKingdom Interlinear Translation).Titus 2:13:
"The great God and Savior": tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon Christou Iesou, lit. "the great God and Savior of us Christ Jesus." Note: in 2 Peter 1:1 is the same grammatical construction (i.e., article-noun-kai-noun): tou theou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou, lit. "the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ (cf. 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18; 2 Thess. 1:12; see Gk.).Hebrews 1:8:"But of the Son He [the Father] says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER. . . ." (ho thronos sou ho theos, lit."the throne of you the God").
Jesus’ Absolute claim to BE
the "I Am" (egw eimi, ego eimi):These would be Mark 6:50; John 8:24; 8:28; 8:58; 13:19 (cf.Isa. 43:10; LXX); 18:5; 18:6; and 18:8.
*Why is it important to know and teach that Jesus IS God?: Besides that of John 4:24; 17:3 and 1 John 2:23, Jesus declares in John 8:24:
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AmHe [ego eimi], you will die in your sins [note: "He" is not in the Gk.].
*See also: John 1:18; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6-11; Col. 2:9 (theotetos); Heb. 1:3; 1 John 5:20; Rev. 5:13-14[The Trinity: One God revealed in three distinctcoequal, coeternal, coexistent Persons].
Good luck,
HappyDad