Nine JW assumptions about 1914 and Daniel 4

by a Christian 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    I just sent this letter to a JW who came knocking on my door talking to me about 1914. I doubt it does him much good since he will probably not read it. But I thought it might help someone here deal with this issue.

    Dear Terry,

    In our last conversation you took exception to my statement that “the 1914 date can only be arrived at after following a very complicated and highly questionable interpretation of several passages of scripture.” Here is what I meant.

    You believe that Christ was enthroned in heaven in the year 1914. You believe this to be true based on several assumptions.

    I’ll here list nine of those assumptions.

    First, you assume that when Christ spoke of the “the times of the gentiles” he was referring to a period of time which began when Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon and would end with his enthronement in heaven. Why do you assume this? Most understand that Jesus was referring to a period of time in which God would allow non-Jewish peoples to severely persecute Jewish people, a period of time which began with Rome’s siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 66 and has continued ever since.

    Second, you assume that this same period of time (from Babylon’s destruction of Jerusalem until Christ’s enthronement) was also prophetically referred to in Daniel Chapter 4. Why do you assume this? Daniel chapter 4 does not need any interpretation by us today. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and asked Daniel to interpret it, which he did quite well in verses 20-28. The interpretation Daniel gave seemed quite thorough. Nothing written in the Bible indicates that Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream was either incorrect or incomplete. Thus, there exists no reason to believe that God intended for us to understand Nebuchadnezzar's dream any differently than Daniel interpreted it.

    Third, you assume that in Daniel chapter 4, the rule of Nebuchadnezzar was meant to represent God’s righteous rule on earth. Why do you assume this? The rule of a pagan king who enslaved God’s people pictured God’s righteous rule? If Daniel chapter 4 was meant to have a “larger fulfillment” it would make more sense if Nebuchadnezzar’s rule, along with the tree that was cut down, pictured the earthly rule of Satan the devil. Like that Daniel 4 tree, Satan's rule and influence now fills the whole earth. And like that tree, the Bible tells us that Satan's rule and influence will one day be cut down and bound. The tree in Daniel 4 was bound with metal bands. Revelation describes Satan being bound with metal chains. That Nebuchadnezzar was used to play the small scale role of Satan seems quite fitting. Nebuchadnezzar was, after all, a pagan king who had persecuted and enslaved God's people. Revelation also tells us that after a long period of time has passed Satan will be released from his chains, just as the tree was unbanded. Then, just as Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged God's right to rule after “7 times” had passed over him, Satan will be forced to bend his knee to God before he is finally destroyed. For as the Bible says, "Every knee will bow."

    Fourth, you assume that the “7 times” which Daniel said Nebuchadnezzar would be removed from his throne actually meant 7 years. Why do you assume this is true? If the angel who appeared to Nebuchadnezzar in his dream telling him he would be removed from power for “seven times” actually meant “seven years” why did he not just say “seven years”? It seems to me that if this prophecy was meant to have a “larger fulfillment” the words “seven times” may have a far deeper meaning than just “seven years.“ The fact of the matter is that the history of Nebuchadnezzar's reign is very well documented in the scriptures and in extra-biblical sources. A thorough review of all of this information shows that it is impossible to find a period of seven years within his reign of 43 years when Nebuchadnezzar was absent from his throne or inactive as ruler. With this in mind, it seems unlikely that the "7 times" could have referred to a period of seven years.

    Fifth, you assume that those seven years were not ordinary years but "prophetic years" of 360 days each, totaling 2,520 days. This assumption is based on the belief that the "1260 days" spoken of in Rev. 12:6 are there equated with the “3 ½ times” spoken of in Rev. 12:14. But this is not necessarily so. For instance, some Bible commentators understand that the 1260 days in Rev. 12:6 refer to the time when Christianity was protected after the time of Christ's ascension and before the time the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles in 36 AD. Then, when the good news began to be preached to all national groups Christianity took off, as though it had wings of eagles, and was thereafter protected for a second longer period of time. This second period of protection was the "“3 and ½ times” spoken of in Rev. 12:14. This "“3 and ½ times” are understood to be the period of time from 36 AD until the time of Christ's return. Since some interpretations of Rev. 12, such as this one, say that the "1260 days" and the "“3 and ½ times” spoken of in Rev. 12 do not refer to the same period of time, the concept of a 360 day "prophetic year" may not even exist in the Bible.

    Sixth, you assume that each of those 2,520 days was meant to picture an ordinary solar year of 365.24 days each. Why do you assume this? If, in this prophecy, days were meant to be understood as years, then it would follow that days in “prophetic years” having 360 days each should be understood as years having 360 days each - not years having 365.24 days each.

    Seventh, you assume that from this prophecy we can determine the time of Christ’s enthronement. Why do you assume this? In Daniel chapter 4 the same person, Nebuchadnezzar, who was removed from his throne was returned to his throne at the end of “seven times.” Jesus Christ was never removed from his throne to later be returned. However, the Bible tells us Satan will be. Again, if Daniel chapter 4 was intended to have a “larger fulfillment” the rule of Satan the devil fits much better here than the rule of Jesus Christ.

    Eighth, you assume that in order to determine the year of Christ’s enthronement we are to count forward in time beginning with the year when Zedekiah, the last king of Judah, was removed from his throne. Why do you assume this? The tree that was cut down in Daniel chapter 4 “was visible to the ends of the earth and … from it every creature was fed.” (Dan. 4:11,12) Like this tree, Nebuchadnezzar’s rule extended to the ends of the then known world. All nations of the ancient Near East fell under his control. So this tree picturing Nebuchadnezzar’s vast rule makes sense. On the other hand, Zedekiah, the last king of Judah, ruled over only one very small nation. So, to understand that the tree that was cut down pictured the termination of Zedekiah’s very limited rule makes little sense.

    Ninth, you assume that Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon in the year 607 B.C.E. You assume this because that is what you have been told. But, as I informed you earlier, all modern historians now assure us that Babylon conquered Jerusalem in either 587 or 586 B.C.E., not in “607 B.C.E.” They do so partly with the help of an “astronomical diary” which records some thirty observations of the moon and the then known five planets during the “37 th year” of Nebuchadnezzar. This “astronomical diary” known as “VAT 4956” leaves no doubt as to when exactly Nebuchanezzar’s “37 th year” of rule took place (568 B.C.E.), and by way of extrapolation when exactly his “19 th year” of rule took place (586 B.C.E.), the year in which the Bible tells us that he destroyed Jerusalem. (2 Kings 25:8) The only reason historians have any doubt about the exact year of Jerusalem’s fall (some say 587 rather than 586 B.C.E.) is that the Bible seems to also give Nebuchadnezzar’s “18 th year” as the year of Jerusalem’s fall. (Jeremiah 52:29)

    So, do you see why I called your “1914” interpretation “very complicated and highly questionable”? I did so because this understanding is based on at least nine assumptions. And if any one of them is wrong (and it seems to me they may all be wrong), then the whole interpretation is wrong.

    Mike

  • poppers
    poppers

    I think people should print this out and hand it to any "door-knockers" that come to their door.

  • zack
    zack

    Excellent.

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow

    Excellent rebuttal of jw assumptions, thankyou

  • GoingGoingGone
    GoingGoingGone

    Excellent! Thanks so much for posting this!

    GGG

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    You are quite welcome. I'm glad someone has found this helpful. As I said, I doubt the JW I sent it to will even read it. He seemed totally unable or unwilling to question anything he has been taught.

    Earlier I sent him the following and got no reply.

    Dear Terry,

    I have not heard from you in a couple weeks. So, I thought I would send you a letter.

    You told me that you respected my attitude as one like that of the Bereans who “always examined the scriptures to make sure that all they were being taught was true.” (Acts 17:11) However, after I questioned your teaching that Jesus Christ was enthroned in the year 1914, and after I provided you with several scriptures which I believe clearly show that teaching must be based on an incorrect understanding of the Bible, you have failed to respond to my concerns. If you believe my understanding of this matter is incorrect I would like you to explain to me why you believe it is wrong. I guess I am now asking you to do what Peter said Christians should always be willing to do. He told Christians to “always be prepared to make a defense for your faith to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.” (1 Peter 3:15)

    In case you have misplaced the list of scriptures I gave you, here they are again.

    Immediately following his resurrection Jesus told his apostles, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matt. 28:18)

    Paul confirmed this fact by telling us that, “God raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in his heavenly kingdom. There Christ sits far above all who rule and have authority. He also sits far above all powers and kings. He is above every title that can be given in this world and in the world to come.” (Eph. 1:20, 21)

    Paul stated the same thing again later, this time using fewer words, when he wrote, “Christ is the head over every power and authority.” (Col. 2:10)

    That Christ had already, in the First Century, been given all authority in heaven and on earth was also clear to the apostle John. For John wrote, “To the seven churches in the province of Asia: … Grace and peace to you from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” (Rev. 1: 4, 5)

    John no doubt had this fact in mind - that Jesus had already been appointed “King of kings” - when he heard Jesus Christ tell him that he had recently, “sat down with my Father on his throne.” (Rev. 3:21)

    Also to be considered is the fact that Paul wrote that, “God has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves.” Since Paul wrote these words in the First Century it seems clear that God’s “kingdom” which was ruled by “the Son he loves” had already then been fully established. (Col. 3:21)

    So again I ask you, since the scriptures clearly tell us that all power in heaven and on earth, over all kings in this world and in the world to come, had already been given to Jesus Christ in the First Century, when he then sat down on his Father’s throne, how could any further authority have been given to Christ in 1914? What Power was then left to give him?

    Mike

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Sixth, you assume that each of those 2,520 days was meant to picture an ordinary solar year of 365.24 days each. Why do you assume this? If, in this prophecy, days were meant to be understood as years, then it would follow that days in “prophetic years” having 360 days each should be understood as years having 360 days each - not years having 365.24 days each.

    Moreover, since the 360-day priestly solar calendar (which was used in the Priestly portion of the Pentateuch, the Book of Luminaries of 1 Enoch, and elsewhere in Daniel) did not reckon the solstices and equinoxes as days of the month (which each were 30 days in length) but as markers of the seasons between the months, the actual number of sequential days that were reckoned as belonging to the year added up to 364. Thus, the "seven times", if reckoned as a continuous period of seven years, should also include 28 extra days for these epigomenal days that were skipped over in the monthly reckoning (as 1,260 days equals 42 months in Revelation 11:2-3). If there was an additional intercalary "leap week" every sabbatical year, then seven additional days should be added. The length of the year was not a total of 360 days in the solar calendar because this lacked the sabbatical structure inherent in a 364-day reckoning (which is easily divisible by 7, yielding 52 weeks). The Society does not recognize the nature of the 360-day solar calendar that was used in the Second Temple period, referring only to a "prophetic calendar". It was not a "prophetic calendar", it was a real calendar that people used. By the mid-second century BC, however, the epigomenal days were included within the months, such that each season would have two 30-day months and one 31-day month (cf. Jubilees and the Qumran calendrical texts).

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Nebuchadnezzar was, after all, a pagan king who had persecuted and enslaved God's people.

    This is the central absurdity in the whole 1914 doctrine. It would mean that the incapacitation of a Gentile king symbolizes a period of Gentile supremacy, and the cutting down of God's kingdom in 607 BC is symbolized by the incapacitation of a pagan Gentile king, and not just any king, but the very ruler who ended the Judean kingdom in 607 BC.

  • startingover
    startingover
    Nebuchadnezzar was, after all, a pagan king who had persecuted and enslaved God's people.

    This is the central absurdity in the whole 1914 doctrine. It would mean that the incapacitation of a Gentile king symbolizes a period of Gentile supremacy , and the cutting down of God's kingdom in 607 BC is symbolized by the incapacitation of a pagan Gentile king , and not just any king, but the very ruler who ended the Judean kingdom in 607 BC.

    I never thought about this before. Thanks for pointing it out, both Mike and Leolaia.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    I just gave Terry a phone call asking him if he would like to meet again to continue our discussion. He said he is still "reseaching" answers to my questions and will get back to me. Very abrupt. I've just written the following to fire off to him and keep him busy "researching." Dear Terry, Due to my doubts about your book’s “1914” teaching I decided to do some research on the history of this doctrine. I’ll tell you what I found. Many years ago Jehovah’s Witnesses were called “Bible Students.” Before 1914 their literature predicted that something very important was going to take place in 1914. But they were not then predicting that Christ was going to be enthroned in 1914. Because before 1914 the Bible Students taught that Christ had then already been enthroned in the year 1874, and that in the year 1914 Christ would bring an end to all worldly governments, false religions, and all other enemies of God. As the Watchtower of July 15, 1894 wrote, "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." But when 1914 came and went without seeing the end of this world, as the Bible Students had predicted, “the end” was pushed back by them to 1915, and then again to 1925. In the few years leading up to 1925 the Bible Students very strongly and very often promoted their understanding that the year 1925 would be the year that this world would see its end. For instance the 9/1/1922 issue of the Watchtower said that, “1914 ended the Gentile times. The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures. By then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed." The 7/15/1924 issue of the Watchtower repeated that same thought by saying, "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914." Of course we know that the end of this world did not come in 1925. So after 1925 the Bible Students gave up predicting dates for “the end” and admitted that they had simply misunderstood the scriptures on this matter. Unlike the date “1914” - which they continued to support by saying they had been “expecting the wrong thing at the right time”- they admitted that nothing of any great spiritual significance had taken place in the year 1925. For nearly two decades following their failed predictions about what would happen in 1925, the Bible Students taught that 1914 was the year Christ began judging this world, after he had been “enthroned” in 1874. The 1874 date for Christ’s enthronement was held onto until 1943. Then Watchtower publications began transferring everything they had previously taught about 1874 to the year 1914, tacitly admitting that all they had long taught about “1874” had been incorrect. Why have the leaders of the Watchtower Society admitted to making mistakes about the years 1925 and 1874 but not about the year 1914? After all, they once wrote that, “1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914.” Most who have studied the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses believe it is because World War I broke out in 1914. And, since the pre-1914 Bible Students had been predicting that something very important was going to happen in 1914 (not a World War and not the enthronement of Christ, but the end of the world), by tossing out “1874” and “1925” but holding onto “1914” Watchtower leaders have been able to say that they correctly predicted that something very significant would happen in 1914. And it did. World War I. Holding onto “1914” also allows Watchtower leaders to suggest that World War I was likely the result of a “war in heaven” which Revelation indicates took place at the time of Christ’s enthronement, even though they taught for many years, both before and after 1914, that this “war in heaven” took place in “1874”. However, many believe that the main reason Watchtower leaders now continue to promote their “1914” doctrine is that if Christ was not enthroned in 1914, and if he did not then begin a three and a half year long “inspection” of all Christian denominations, he could not have appointed them “over all his belongings” at the end of that inspection in 1919, as they say that he did. (How they can possibly know that Christ did such a thing is another discussion altogether.) In other words, if Watchtower leaders were ever to admit that they might be wrong about 1914 they could no longer claim to be “God‘s sole channel for dispensing Biblical truth on the earth.” Terry, I guess at this point I have to ask you, with all the scriptural evidence I have presented that Jesus was fully enthroned at the time of his resurrection, and considering the fact that Watchtower leaders have been wrong about various dates they have promoted in the past, do you really believe that people must accept their “1914” teaching in order to be judged by God as true Christians? I’d really like an answer to this question. After you answer this question, hopefully we will never have to discuss “1914” again. For if you do not believe that accepting this “1914” doctrine is required by God in order for him to consider us to be true Christians then there is really no need for us to discuss “1914” any further. Mike

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