I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
Is. 2:2 My analysis..what's yours?
by NewTruth 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
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NewTruth
Hello gang;; Thanks for the comments...
Doug, you had some questions...so here they are:
I am concerned that you seem to be using the OT to interpret the NT, which I believe is the wrong way around. The words of the NT must be used to explain the OT. Are there any NT passages that are direct quotations of Isa 2:2?
You acknowledge the analysis provided by Leolaia. I would therefore like to see how the structure given to the first two chapters of Isaiah provides a model for a secondary or even ternary fulfillment (some call this apotelesmatic – repeated and greater – fulfillments”).
Whom or what does “Jerusalem” symbolize across both chapters? We expect to see consistency of application across the two chapters, since they are closely bound, doctrinally and historically.
Where do you fit the “Great Trouble”? We know that at Matthew 24:21, this “Trouble” preceded and was associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Or do you have a secondary/ternary fulfillment from Isaiah 2 folding into Matthew 24, and then you consider that the fulfillment in Matthew 24 itself was to have a secondary/ternary fulfillment?
you said: I am concerned that you seem to be using the OT to interpret the NT, which I believe is the wrong way around. The words of the NT must be used to explain the OT. Are there any NT passages that are direct quotations of Isa 2:2?
Well, the NT talks of the last days, and John in Revelation ate the little scroll and was told to prophesy again to the nations.. Those would be 2 similarities..
you said: Whom or what does “Jerusalem” symbolize across both chapters? We expect to see consistency of application across the two chapters, since they are closely bound, doctrinally and historically.
To me, Jerusalem is symbolic of God's chosen people..now, both Jews and Gentiles..
you said: Where do you fit the “Great Trouble”? We know that at Matthew 24:21, this “Trouble” preceded and was associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Or do you have a secondary/ternary fulfillment from Isaiah 2 folding into Matthew 24, and then you consider that the fulfillment in Matthew 24 itself was to have a secondary/ternary fulfillment?
I think the Great Trouble or Great Tribulation is the last days, that is mentioned in Is. 2:2. I think Math. 24 and Is. 2 are both talking about the last days..I thinks the last days or GT is preceding the destruction in 70CE..and also that that we have a GT also..that precedes the destruction of the dying system of things..
you said: The 144,000 do not relate to the “Great Trouble”, since the Revelator says the ultimate winds of strife are “held back” to enable the 144,000 virgin Jewish men to be sealed – or is some part of that phrase literal while another part is symbolic, to fit one’s desired outcome?
The 144,000 are sealed in the beginning of the last days.. I think much of Rev..is symbolic.. definately..
Thanks for questions... interesting.
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writetoknow
One thing has become clear to me that the truth requires God to teach us not a human organization. Mountains are always represented in God's words as Governments or arrangement that have control of his people. They are elvated but by who?
All the world wide religious groups today are in a state of confusion. People worldwide confess devotion to there personal groups or faith. When it fails them they cannot seperate God from that doctrine or the people of that group. Why? Because God is seen in people not in truth and spirit as He really is. Reproach upon reproach has been heap upon God and His Son in the name of all religions of the world.
But doesn't this very fact fulfill what God's word states in the story of the weeds among wheat? Did he not say that great drag nets would be let down in the end days to gather the fish. Have you ever seen a drag net - it is not pretty? It is cruel and destroyes everything in its wake. God's people are gather into what now days? Organization since from the time of Christ - it hasn't been a pretty sight. But has served a purpose as all of us being in a organization for a time.
Are people angry at God. Yes, they are because their faith has been place in doctrine and the acceptance of men more then the love of God. Again we were warned this would happen - a time of great testing for all those dwelling on the earth so much so people would blasphemy God.
Man nature is to worship anything but God in spirit and truth. The whole issues from the start was one of freedom to try our ways. When the Jew love false worship more then Gods they were lead into a captivity until they wanted to go up to the house of God alone. God allows people to be glutted with their own ways or doctrine. In fact, there will come a time that people will run away from those teaching because they will have so many mental plagues with them they will deny even being a teacher of them.
We know that all the works in the earth will become expose the problem is all religion think their group will not be apart of that exposing to the eyes of the world. God word tells us that everything will be wash away accept one stone that stone is Christ. We ex-JWs had another stone we were standing on or our faith would still be intact
Do organization form people into Christian by the spirit or through indoctrination? Some within those groups are lead by the spirit but they are almost always thrown out because there is war between flesh and spirit. This is the history of the church. In fact you may not be a true christian if you haven't been thrown out of a group or two or three. So your in good company.
The moutain being lift up in Isa. (as states at the start of this tread) is exactly how the society applied it in their older publication. I have learned that weeds always steal what is God's and claim it as their own. When God's temple was razed the weeds took the holy utensle as theirs. Later those holy things became a plague and they could not be done with them soon enough. The same will be true of all that proudly take God's word today a refining as if by fire awaits them. And look it has already started!
I have seen this happening in the organization of Jehovah Witness over the years they have stolen the gifts God has given them in spiritual men and woman thrown them outside until the light is gone inside. So if you eye is dark then your whole body dwells in darkness.
That mountain is already there and lift up read of it in Hebrews12 and we have approached that moutain by faith. Those that set themselve in God's Holy Temple and raise themselves up will be shaken. To distrust God and lose faith in Christ because of a abusive fleshly so called Mother - to think God will trick us is foolish. If there has been tricks its because of false doctrine or ideas we believe were from God . Yes, we worshipped an organization down below in the earth we did not go up to the oneway God set out for all that want to worship him. We walk by faith not sight. If you believe the Son of God was raise and you confess him then your on your way by God's spirit.
If God's word is not read from love from above it is a tool for smashing lives to piece
Be not mislead, my dear brothers, Every beneficent gift and every perfect present is form above; it descends from the Father of lights, with whom no variation occurs nor shadow cast by turning.
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NewTruth
Hello there Write to Know...
Welcome to the board. How long have you been out..? I've been out since Sept. 2005. I was in for 26 years.. and I partook the last few years, I was in.
I liked your comments.
One thing has become clear to me that the truth requires God to teach us not a human organization.
This is the truth and also, that mountains are governments or arrangements..lifted up.
All the world wide religious groups today are in a state of confusion. People worldwide confess devotion to there personal groups or faith. When it fails them they cannot seperate God from that doctrine or the people of that group. Why? Because God is seen in people not in truth and spirit as He really is. Reproach upon reproach has been heap upon God and His Son in the name of all religions of the world.
Boy, if there was ever a TRUER statement..I don't know of any!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The dragnet illustration is interesting..
You are right, it definately is man's nature to follow men instead of God... or idols...like the Isrealites.. Why don't men want to follow God and Christ? Do you think it makes them feel safe, to worship something they can see and touch???
you said: God word tells us that everything will be wash away accept one stone that stone is Christ.
Could you please tell me where this is in the bible???
I liked what you said...about, if we are not thrown out of groups..maybe something is wrong?
The moutain being lift up in Isa. (as states at the start of this tread) is exactly how the society applied it in their older publication. I have learned that weeds always steal what is God's and claim it as their own. When God's temple was razed the weeds took the holy utensle as theirs. Later those holy things became a plague and they could not be done with them soon enough. The same will be true of all that proudly take God's word today a refining as if by fire awaits them. And look it has already started!
Are you saying that, the word of God is like an idol, something that people use in pride? Explain again please..
If God's word is not read from love from above it is a tool for smashing lives to piece
Isn't this the truth... I believe the mountain is Is..is already raised.. I believe we are in the last days, or the GT..
comments welcome
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needproof
NewTruth, welcome! Although I do not agree with your thesis on the scripture, I am glad you joined us. You have every right to form your opinion of scripture, there are no 'do's and dont's' here
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writetoknow
In Matthew among other places Christ tells us Matt: 7:24-27 regarding a house not build on Christ teaching. 1 Cor 3: 13-23 Paul gives warning of building on inferior material other then Christ. Isa 28 15-29 Tells us whats going to happen to all those not standing on that stone. Peter warns us that a time will come that all the works would be exposed starting with God's house first 2Pet 3:1-18 He tells us about not following cunning teachings 2Pet 2:16-21
Peter states when that judgment starts for true Christ 1Pet 4:17-19
The bible is not hard to understand when looking at it from the veiw point God has stated not men. Everything was fulfilled in Christ every thing from the prophets the law everything. Christ is the "Key" to understanding everything in the bible.
JWs as will as other groups try to put their organazation in his position of Christ as thought they are the key. But our unrighteousness only proves God right. They keep looking for new light when it is already their. Christ is that light and he happily gives to any asking in abundant wisdom and knowledge he is the greater Solomon he is the fulfillment of Solomon not in the future but right now since the time of Christ.
Paul entire arguments in his books is that of - we already have the fullness of the Christ because he was raised and was given power over all. Christian were lacking nothing if they are from Christ. But as then and today Christian look to man and not the heavens. Christ never gave any of his apostle a new organzation to go too. Remember we don't worship in this mountain or that mountailn we worship in Spirit and Truth and at God's mountain and it is not on earth! Tthat is why real Christain became God's temple a holy place of worship and for God to dwell in. That is why all true Christian are gifts give by God to us.
Most Christian are praying for things already given to God's children. And it was given in fullness with nothing lacking.
You see friend God is not corruptable and the seed that is sown in his children is incorruptable it can only come from one place and that place cannot be seen with human eyes or touched with human hands as the moutain Moses and his people went up to. Gods children no longer have to wait Christ tells them plainly what he is doing by spirit. If you are led by God's spirit then you are indeed God's children.
The witnesses would have us believe that God's word is frozen holy spirit, No! Gods children have already been given that gift 2000years ago freely not in measure but in abundance. The early Christian did not need a bible they enjoyed hearing the letters read for remainders but it was not consider more holy then God temple who they were. When they were put in prison or places they could not associate with their brothers and sisters they had something far greater they were the place of worship were God Himself dwells. They had no fear of not going to a hundred meetings a week they did not wait with a baited breath for the next new light they were the light of the world.
They didn't wonder if God was real they had His spirit with them as a father loves their sons. And if you read your bible you will see very quickly that our times are told since the time of Christ we are fulfilling Christ words by being collected together into drag nets. Drag nets - read out them - how destructive they are those are the organizations of the world today. At the end God sends his angle to collect the good fish from the bad. All true Christian have been in those drag nets since when? Yes, from Christ that what he trying to tell the apostle would happen after the last one died.
At the same time He refining his own through allowing them to be scooped up into these great drag nets. They must be tested to become not like the world or false Christain but vessel of "mercy" and this cannot be accomplish without all true Christain being a part of Babylon - for what ever time God allows. Even Christ was born into false relgion and had to come out of Eygpt. Eygpt stands for false religion.
No glory goes to men or their mountains - God will not share his glory with corruptable arrangements; he has choosen the foolish things that He might but the wise to shame that no flesh might boast in the sight of God
JWS are no more then modern day Jews they live under the commandments and are a physical nation. They have label that physical nation a Great Crowd to explain away why these people are not lead by God's spirit.
So we now understand the harshness of the corrupted Jewish nations. We also know that there were faithful Jews that used the law as love and they were kicked out or kill that is why we are told we must go outside the city as all the prophets did to worship and find truth.
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writetoknow
2 Chronicles 15:1-15 The spirit of God on Azariah
The spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded. He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: The Lord is with you, while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you abandon him, he will abandon you. For a long time Israel was without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law; but when in their distress they turned to the Lord, the God of Israel, and sought him, he was found by them. In those times it was not safe for anyone to go or come, for great disturbances afflicted all the inhabitants of the lands. They were broken in pieces, nation against nation and city against city, for God troubled them with every sort of distress. But you, take courage! Do not let your hands be weak, for your work shall be rewarded."
When Asa heard these words, the prophecy of Azariah son of Oded, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols from all the land of Judah and Benjamin and from the towns that he had taken in the hill country of Ephraim. He repaired the altar of the Lord that was in front of the vestibule of the house of the Lord. He gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and those from Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon who were residing as aliens with them, for great numbers had deserted to him from Israel when they saw that the Lord his God was with him. They were gathered at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa. They sacrificed to the Lord on that day, from the booty that they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep. They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, with all their heart and with all their soul. Whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. They took an oath to the Lord with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with horns. All Judah rejoiced over the oath; for they had sworn with all their heart, and had sought him with their whole desire, and he was found by them, and the Lord gave them rest all around.Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and it is "now" when the true worshipers will worship the Father in "spirit and truth" for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
But you have come to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to and innumerable company of angels.
And the rain descended the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house and it fell and great was its fall.
Now this, Yet once more, indicates that removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made , that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Each one's works will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's works is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be "saved". Yet so as by fire.
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven give among men by which we must be saved.
that is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.
Then I looked and behold a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Lord, to whom shall we go? You hae the words of eternal life.
Now is shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peopel shall flow to it.
In that day, says the Lord, I will assmble the lame, I will gather the outcast and those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcast a strong nation; so the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on, even forever.
When Jesus had raised himself up and saw no one but the woman, he said to her, Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, I am the light of the world. He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
For if our hearts condemns us, God is greater than our hearts, and knows all things.
What mountain are you worshipping at?
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proplog2
Dan 2:35 At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth.
Dan 2:44,45 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.
Dan 7:26,27 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.
27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’
Dan 12:3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. -
heathen
I'm looking at it and it does look as if the WTBTS tried to make the first part apply to them when if you read further it looks as if the Isaiah 2:2 is talking about ancient Israel then goes on to talk about the messiah but then goes on into the future all the way to the kingdom arrival . Also the NWT talks about the house of jehovah and not a temple . I think the WTBTS thinks they are like mount zion and making all sorts of quaking and causing the earth to tremble symbolically . Have to look at the dogma again. best I can do for now.