144.000 and their biblical facts

by Marcel 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Marcel

  Hi there!

  I always wondered how all the facts about the 144.000 written in Revelation are discarded by JWs.
  I would like to know how the WTS talks all these things away that doesnt fit their doctrine.

  1. (Revelation 7:4) . . .

     And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:...

  2. (Revelation 14:1) . . .And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

  3. (Revelation 14:4) . . .These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins...

  (1) -> Son of Israel - NOT of all nations
  (2) -> Mount Zion is a earthly symbol and not a heavenly one
  (3) -> virgin men, not deflowered women and men

  Where comes that "spiritual Israel"-Doctrine from? What is Zion? Why does virgin dont mean virgin?

  This aint a typical "WTS teaches BS"-post - i just want to know how JW see that. ive tried to look it up myself but i didnt found anything convincing (means: something that sounds logical to me) yet.

  Thank You!

  Marcel
• 

  carla

  That's the beauty of a cult, anything you don't like or doesn't fit just make it symbolic.
• 

  abbagail

  Hi Marcel, good outline.
  
  Modern JWs aren't even aware of it, but I believe it was around JF Rutherford's time, when the WT jumped over to what is commonly referred to, in regular Christian circles, as "Replacement Theology." In other words, and to put it simply:
  
  Wherever ISRAEL is mentioned in scripture (2,605 times), they decided to "REPLACE" it with THE CHURCH (in this case, THE WATCHTOWER and/or its "Faithful & Discreet Slave Class" to be more specific). And wherever JERUSALEM is mentioned in scripture (813 times), they decided to "REPLACE" it with HEAVEN.
  
  Like Carla said, they 'spiritualized' verses to suit their theology.
  
  The JWs would be surprised, I believe, if they realized they shared this Israel/Church, Jerusalem/Heaven misinterpretation with other MAINSTREAM "Christendom" denominations (to JWs, "Christendom" is a horror-word). Notice the JWs are #24 on this below list...
  
  http://www.watch.org/showart.php3?idx=64261&rtn=/index.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1
  
  [...]
  
  Below is a list of the 25 largest churches in America. The churches that [have the >> marks] are confirmed replacement theology churches. We are still attempting to confirm a few of the smaller church positions.
  
  The Church
  
  U.S. Membership Denominational Ranking: Largest 25 Denominations/Communions --2004 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches
  
  >>1. The Roman Catholic Church - 66,407,105
  
  2. Southern Baptist Convention - 16, 427, 736
  
  >>3. The United Methodist Church - 8,251,042
  
  4. The Church of God in Christ - 5,499,875
  
  >>5. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - 5,410,544
  
  >>6. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - 5,038,006
  
  7. National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc. - 5,000,000
  
  8. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. - 3,500,000
  
  >>9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - 3,407,329
  
  10. Assemblies of God - 2,687,366
  
  >>11. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - 2,512,714
  
  >>12. African Methodist Episcopal Church - 2,500,000
  
  13. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America - 2,500,000
  
  14. Progressive National Baptist Convention Inc. - 2,500,000
  
  >>15. The Episcopal Church - 2,333,628
  
  >>16. Churches of Christ, Corsicana, Texas - 1,500,000
  
  >>17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - 1,500,000
  
  18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. - 1,500,000
  
  19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. - 1,484,291
  
  >>20. African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church - 1,430,795
  
  >>21. United Church of Christ - 1,330,985
  
  22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International - 1,200,000
  
  >>23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, Mo. - 1,071,616
  
  >>24. Jehovah's Witnesses - 1,022,397
  
  25. Church of God, Cleveland, Tenn., - 944,857
  
  [...] End quote.
  
  For more info re: "replacement theology":
  http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm
  http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm
  http://www.shomairyisrael.com/Articles/replacemenetheologypartone.htm
  
  /ag
• 

  avidbiblereader

  Good points Marcel, but you stop thinking

  I would comment but as you stated it doesn't fit in, better to say we dont know so at this time we will have to wait on Jah for the understanding

  abr
• 

  kwr

  The NIV does not use virgin but pure and NIV bible study notes purpose that the defile themselves with women means pagan world system. I guess you would have to get into the original Greek to see if you agree with their definition.

  NIV

  Rev14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

  Darby

  Rev 14:4 These are they who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins: these are they who follow the Lamb wheresoever it goes. These have been bought from men [as] first-fruits to God and to the Lamb:

  KJV

  Rev14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb
• 

  AnnOMaly

  Hi Marcel

  Here are some quick pointers.

  (1) -> Son of Israel - NOT of all nations

  Rom. 9:6; Gal. 3:29.

  (2) -> Mount Zion is a earthly symbol and not a heavenly one

  Heb 12:22f.

  (3) -> virgin men, not deflowered women and men

  Compare Ezek. 23, where Israel and Judah's spiritual unfaithfulness is described in colorful metaphors.

  If you take the symbols in Revelation too literally, you will have to say that the 144k are male virgin Jews (and some believe that, of course). There's loads written on the literal Israel versus 'spiritual' Israel argument. JWs are far from being alone in thinking natural Israel has been replaced with a Christian 'Israel' composed of all nations.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  WTS asserts that their doctrines are absolutely accurate. They are accurate because
  God makes sure that his representatives get accurate Bible knowledge. If anything
  appears to conflict with their doctrines, they explain it with doctrinal gymnastics like
  saying that the so-called conflicting scripture is "symbolic" in substance. It must
  be symbolic because it fits the doctrine, the doctrine is absolutely accurate, and we
  know that because God makes sure his representatives get accurate Bible knowledge.

  If it becomes necessary to change the doctrine, it is NOW absolutely accurate. Any
  appearance that it was inaccurate before must be understood in the light of further revealed
  truths. It served a purpose to reveal the truth of the matter gradually. It brings God's
  people together, or helps unbelievers to get a basic understanding of Christian values.
  They may have adjusted their understanding over time, but that just proves that they
  are God's representatives. Therefore, the doctrine is NOW absolutely accurate, and we
  know that because God makes sure his representatives get accurate Bible knowledge.

  I hope I cleared that all up for you.
• 

  Narkissos

  What makes the book of Revelation difficult to interpret (or, from another perspective, only too easy to "interpret" -- in a multitude of wild ways) is that it is probably made up of several documents, some of which may have had little or nothing to do initially with Christianity. So it is quite possible to read the passages about the 144,000 as referring to an "ideal Israel" from a purely Jewish standpoint, algthough from the overall perspective of the final (Christian) book an application to Christians (especially the martyrs), regardless of their origin, is much more likely. In both cases, though, the reference to "virginity" would have probably been understood as figurative.

  The epistles to the seven churches (which probably belong to the later strata) do have a kind of "replacement theology" (cf. 2:9; 3:9) which is quite similar to what is found in Matthew (a paradoxical Jewish-Christian anti-Judaism).
• 

  glenster

  Replacement theology is also called supersessionism:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

  The choice of a literal 144,000 in the Watchtower was started with Russell--he claimed just him and whoever agreed with him was going to rule the Earth from heaven (see the opening of "Pinky and the Brain").

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJPFSNu_QNs