I too was raised a JW and so never said the pledge of allegiance. I say it now because I love my country and admire the ideals set forth in the pledge. My four year old daughter has just learned to say the pledge and tonight recited it for me. I am very very proud of her.
Pledge of Allegiance
by Celia 24 Replies latest jw friends
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Yerusalyim
Why does the word "PROPOGANDA" have such negative conotations? Every government, nay EVERY PERSON uses propoganda. Some is positive (the pledge of allegiance) some is negative (the "death to the infidels" chant). Propoganda is nuetral it's all in the WHO and HOW of the issue.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
Seeker
propaganda: "The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause."
That's why. It's not an even-handed, present-both-sides, dissemination of information. It's a systematic propagation of one side.
This is a valid approach to take only when there is 100% absolute certainty that you are propagating the correct side. Life is not like that in most cases. It most certainly is never like that in politics. America may be a great country, but it isn't the best country in some respects, and other countries aren't as awful as Americans tend to think.
When a person recites the Pledge of Allegiance, they are propagating the view that America, as it exists right now (as opposed to some ideal future) is:
"one nation under God" -- except if you are an atheist, or worship Allah
"indivisible" -- ROFL, no nation excapes division. Even now, Bush has a 90% approval rating. That means 10% disapprove. Furthermore, it is white against black, black against asian, rich against poor, north against south. Sure, when the chips are down, most people pull together, but even there it is "most" not all.
"with liberty and justice for all" -- many Americans would disagree with that completely. Justice is bought in this country, though sometimes the poor luck out. If you are caught Driving While Black you may find the "liberty" bit hard to swallow. If you see your civil liberties being stolen by Congress under cover of "fighting terrorism," you might wonder about the "liberty for all" bit.Now, many of you may completely disagree with what I just said ("indivisible"? Oops), but that's the point. There are points to disagree with, to discuss, to realize that politics is often shades of gray and not black-and-white. Thus the use of propaganda in this case is unjustified. The use of reason and facts would be better than a rote recitation of patriotic propaganda.
For the record, I have absolutely no problem with the first part of the Pledge, and would gladly recite it:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands."
It's the rest of it I disagree with.
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roybatty
I wonder how many kids can abstain from reciting China's version of the pleage without being punished? Think about it before you compare the USA to China.
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Seeker
I wasn't comparing the USA to China. Think about it, the two countries are miles apart politically and culturally. So how could I possibly have meant that?
What I said and what I meant is that the mass recitation of a political message is similar. When they do it, we call it propaganda. When we do it, we call it patriotism. This process (not the countries) is similar, and it is designed to achieve similar results.
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Xena
I still feel ackward when they have the pledge in a public place or the national anthem...I don't mind standing but feel uncomfortable singing (could be because my voice sucks) or reciting the pledge.
We have spoken with our daughter regarding the pledge and let her make the decision whether or not she feels comfortable with it...what ever she decides to do now or in the future we will support her.
Our schools are out this Friday (most like in response to a heartfelt prayer by all JW kids, NOT lol)
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roybatty
>>When they do it, we call it propaganda. When we do it, we call it patriotism.<<
When I think of Chinese propaganda, I think of controling or limiting what the people can think and believe. There is no room to disagree with the government's offical policies, unless you want to be shot.
Here in the USA, you can pledge alligence but still disagree with government. Big difference.
My kids are still being raised as JWs by their mother and have chosen not to say the pledge at school. They do this without any retaliation by the school. I cannot picture the same thing happening in China. Also, here in downtown Chicago, there are protestors chatting and yelling that the US is wrong in bombing the Afgans. Again, I can't picture the same thing happening in China. -
Seeker
When I think of Chinese propaganda, I think of controling or limiting what the people can think and believe. There is no room to disagree with the government's offical policies, unless you want to be shot.
China is not quite that bad, though it is far less free than the USA, which I have already acknowledged, and I acknowledge it again. All I am saying is that mass recitation of a political message is a process that is similar in both countries. Yes, IN ADDITION, China does much more propaganda. And the voices of dissent, though present in both countries, is proscribed more severely there. But this one area, and it is the only area I have been talking about, is similar in both countries.
Here in the USA, you can pledge alligence but still disagree with government. Big difference.
No, the same happens in China. There are many who disagree with the government in China. Yes, the sanctions are worse in China by far. Here, while you may be imprisioned for peaceful protest, it usually doesn't last long. In China you can be imprisioned for years.
My kids are still being raised as JWs by their mother and have chosen not to say the pledge at school. They do this without any retaliation by the school. I cannot picture the same thing happening in China. Also, here in downtown Chicago, there are protestors chatting and yelling that the US is wrong in bombing the Afgans. Again, I can't picture the same thing happening in China.
It's only different by degrees. There are social sanctions for not reciting political messages in this country, whereas in China there are social and criminal sanctions. But again, this is getting into the USA vs China debate, and that isn't what I was talking about at all.
Let me try again: You have much more freedom in this country. OK? Got that out of the way? Good. Now, my point is that this event on Friday is using a process that is not dissimilar from one of the processes used in other countries. It is political indoctrination. Yes, you can disagree here and get away with it in many cases, but I'm not talking about the overall political freedom that exists here, I'm just talking about this one, isolated process. Nothing more, nothing less. What happens after that process is what sets our country apart, and why I'm so proud of America. But when they resort to similar propaganda techniques, I'm not proud of that tiny piece of America.
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Hojon
Actually in China you can be killed for disagreeing with the government (Great Leap Forward?). Big difference.
However, my main point is that pledging allegiance to the flag is kind of silly if you think about it, I'd rather it was allegiance to the Constitution or something meaningful (which is actually what the politicans take and oath to- not the flag).
The "Under God" part was added in the 50's during the Red Scare, it originally didn't appear in the pledge until then. That's also when "In God We Trust" appeared on all currency. I was only on (I'm guessing here, not positive which) the penney(?) before.
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c5
When I recite the Pledge of Allegiance, or sing the National Anthemn now, it is an honor.
I do not believe the US government is perfect nor do I believe it will solve all of our problems at any time. In fact, I have many gripes with many issues. However, it does not mean I have doubts or problems with what our country basically stands for-FREEDOM.
I do think it is a small, simple way to express patriotism and greatfulness to our country and way of life we have. I hardly agree to the JW belief that it is a form of "worship".
The reason why I think this national recital of the pledge in schools is supposed to happen, is to reinforce to all the we stand United and that we as Americans are basically all together on this one. Children learn very well by repetition and songs......and I think the lesson here is good--YOU AS AN AMERICAN ARE NOT ALONE!
If one's conscience does not permit one to say it, I do not have a problem with that either. But if taken advantage of, this united day could be a grand oppourtunity to show your support.
I think if you are a parent of a child that participates in this, why not take some free time shortly thereafter and talk to your child about freedom, oppourtunity, safety, and togetherness, and responsibility. We as a people spend way too much time focasing on the bad aspects of our society (reminicent especially of JW lifestyle) , and heaven knows there is enough of that... but why not take this simple oppourtinity to show what good can come out of a sense of togetherness; a feeling of not being alone in time of trouble. Point out to your child that no system of governing is perfect and no system of government will have a magic cure for all of our problems, but teach them that in America, you are granted the FREEDOM to pursue happiness and fulfillment------a luxury that many many other nationals of other countries do not have.
I am so thankful that I have rid myself of the "doomsday" worldview that JW's and other religions have, and now look at life very positivly, even through major crisis such as the recent events.
Reciting the Pledge is just a simple way of showing greatfulness to what we have...if you choose to be a part of it.