by Adolfius 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Adolfius, there MUST be a better way to talk you parents OUT of the Borg!
As for the Flood of Naoh's Day, I have a theroy: The Flood occurred only in the known part of of the Earth, where humans lived, as that was their whole world and they knew nothing more beyond their territory.
Noah took into the Ark the then, known animals and creepy things. As for insects? They were living on the animals...God could have done away with the ticks and mosquitos though.
Two things about the Flood as explained by the WTS that never squared with me:
1. Why did God take out his vengeance on the animals? This seems contrived and part of the whole hebrew god legend.
2. Forget about collecting the animals, how the hell did they then swim across the now vaster oceans to end up in South America, North America? How did the animals
now only found on the ISLAND of Australia get there? And since all the species were on the ark when it settled on Ararat, why are not, then, all species found in Europe and Asia?
The more one thinks, the more one think this is all bullshi#.
2. Forget about collecting the animals, how the hell did they then swim across the now vaster oceans to end up in South America, North America? How did the animals
See my theroy above: They didn't swim there...they were already there.
I just read Mario Di Maggio's letter and the Society's reply... Their reply is so typical, so dismissive. The only thing they did not tell him to do was to talk to the local elders and to pray about it, two more of their stock phrases
Yes tophat, you're theory is right about the flood being more localised as in the then "known world". It would make more sense if the WTS said as much.
They tend to state that references elsewhere in the bible that refer to the whole earth, are actually to be taken in context of the local "known world", but when it comes to the flood, don't they say it was a global thing....literally???
That's what I can't understand. I think the whole flood thing is a myth, but wouldn't they have a stronger case if they went with the local flooding angle...it would at least convince a few more people. To dogmatically stick with it being the entire globe that drowned just seems too impossible for even an idiot to fall for. Aren't they just asking for people to start questioning it?
As for why I would use this as an argument with my parents? They are your typical ageing JW's who know nothing else and have no outside influence. They are also not very intelligent, (I don't mean that in a nasty way, they just refuse to think about anything and blindly accept every tiny detail told to them by the WTS) and therefore I need something so obvious that a child would see the the point. Anyone with any other simple arguments I could use, I would really appreciate it.
Thanks
There was a program about this on our satilite learning channell..It seems there was a local flood in that part of the world..The flood was literally of biblical proportion..The water that was moved,was 100 times that,of what goes over the Niagra Falls..The water from it,is now the Dead Sea...OUTLAW
Which flood are you referring to anyway? There are two flood stories in Genesis. I know that this is long, but if you will spend a little time to read it, you may get some interesting insights from it.
This is the first story. Compare it with what your Bible says. I've just done some cutting and pasting to make the differences more apparent. I call it the "Jehovah" version:
Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, because I do regret that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.
After that Jehovah said to Noah: “Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation. Of every clean beast you must take to yourself by sevens, the sire and its mate; and of every beast that is not clean just two, the sire and its mate; also of the flying creatures of the heavens by sevens, male and female, to preserve offspring alive on the surface of the entire earth. For in just seven days more I am making it rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will wipe every existing thing that I have made off the surface of the ground.” And Noah proceeded to do according to all that Jehovah had commanded him.
So Noah went in, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark ahead of the waters of the deluge. And seven days later it turned out that the waters of the deluge came upon the earth. And the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days and forty nights. After that Jehovah shut the door behind him.
And the deluge went on for forty days upon the earth, and the waters kept increasing and began carrying the ark and it was floating high above the earth. And the waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark kept going on the surface of the waters. And the waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.
Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died. Thus he wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.
So it occurred that at the end of forty days Noah proceeded to open the window of the ark that he had made.
Later he sent out from him a dove to see whether the waters had abated from the surface of the ground. And the dove did not find any resting-place for the sole of its foot, and so it returned to him into the ark because the waters were yet upon the surface of the whole earth. At that he put his hand out and took it and brought it to himself inside the ark. And he went on waiting still another seven days, and once again he sent out the dove from the ark. Later on the dove came to him about the time of evening and, look! there was an olive leaf freshly plucked in its bill, and so Noah got to know that the waters had abated from the earth. And he went on waiting still another seven days. Then he sent out the dove, but it did not come back again to him anymore. And Noah proceeded to remove the covering of the ark and to look, and here the surface of the ground had drained dry.
And Noah began to build an altar to Jehovah and to take some of all the clean beasts and of all the clean flying creatures and to offer burnt offerings upon the altar. And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done. For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.”
Noteworthy features of this account:
1. Jehovah (YHWH, Yahweh) is used throughout.
2. Seven of each "clean" beast and flying creature. Only two of the rest.
3. The flood lasts for forty days and nights.
4. Noah spends 61 days in the ark. (7+40+7+7=61)
5. Noah sends out a dove. Where did the dove go the last time? It couldn't find a mate right after the flood, could it?
6. Noah makes an animal sacrifice. Jehovah likes the smell of burnt flesh.
Each of the two flood stories reads as a complete story in and of itself. The contradictions and poor editting used to make one continuous story are readily apparent when each story is considered on its own merits. The "Priestly" version of the flood story goes like this:
This is the history of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God. In time Noah became father to three sons, Shem, Ham and Ja'pheth. And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence. So God saw the earth and, look! it was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth.
After that God said to Noah: “The end of all flesh has come before me, because the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth. Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree. You will make compartments in the ark, and you must cover it inside and outside with tar. And this is how you will make it: three hundred cubits the length of the ark, fifty cubits its width, and thirty cubits its height. You will make a tso'har [roof; or, window] for the ark, and you will complete it to the extent of a cubit upward, and the entrance of the ark you will put in its side; you will make it with a lower [story], a second [story] and a third [story].
“And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire. And I do establish my covenant with you; and you must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. And of every living creature of every sort of flesh, two of each, you will bring into the ark to preserve them alive with you. Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive. And as for you, take for yourself every sort of food that is eaten; and you must gather it to yourself, and it must serve as food for you and for them.”
And Noah proceeded to do according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.
And Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge of waters occurred on the earth.
Of every clean beast and of every beast that is not clean and of the flying creatures and everything that moves on the ground, they went in by twos to Noah inside the ark, male and female, just as God had commanded Noah.
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
On this very day Noah went in, and Shem and Ham and Ja'pheth, Noah’s sons, and the wife of Noah and the three wives of his sons with him, into the ark; they and every wild beast according to its kind, and every domestic animal according to its kind, and every moving animal that moves on the earth according to its kind, and every flying creature according to its kind, every bird, every winged creature. And they kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh in which the force of life was active. And those going in, male and female of every sort of flesh, went in, just as God had commanded him.
So all flesh that was moving upon the earth expired, among the flying creatures and among the domestic animals and among the wild beasts and among all the swarms that were swarming upon the earth, and all mankind.
And the waters continued overwhelming the earth a hundred and fifty days.
After that God remembered Noah and every wild beast and every domestic animal that was with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters began to subside. And the springs of the watery deep and the floodgates of the heavens became stopped up, and so the downpour from the heavens was restrained. And the waters began receding from off the earth, progressively receding; and at the end of a hundred and fifty days the waters were lacking. And in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ar'a?rat. And the waters kept on progressively lessening until the tenth month. In the tenth month, on the first of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared.
After that he sent out a raven, and it continued flying outdoors, going and returning, until the waters dried off the earth.
Now in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, it came about that the waters had drained from off the earth.
And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth had dried off.
God now spoke to Noah, saying: “Go out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. Every living creature that is with you of every sort of flesh, among the flying creatures and among the beasts and among all the moving animals that move upon the earth, bring out with you, as they must swarm in the earth and be fruitful and become many upon the earth.”
At that Noah went out, and also his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him. Every living creature, every moving animal and every flying creature, everything that moves on the earth, according to their families they went out of the ark.
Noteworthy features of this account:
1. God (Elohim) is used throughout, not Jehovah (YHWH)
2. Only two of each beast, clean and unclean, and only two of each flying creature.
3. Flood lasts 150 days.
4. Noah spends one year and ten days in the ark.
5. Noah used a raven.
6. No sacrifice is mentioned. This point reflected the centralized role of sacrifice to the priestly writer of this version of the flood. Richard Friedman gives an explanation of this in his book.
I didn't make any of this up. It is straight out of Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Friedman. What you have read is a small part of the Documentary Hypothesis, a.k.a. Higher Criticism. It should be no wonder that the Watchtower Society has never refuted the Documentary Hypothesis directly, instead choosing to obliquely criticize it. As I said before, each flood story stands well on its own. Once considered individually, then the edited version found in the Bible seems all the more contradictory and cumbersome.
So, it is yet another tool in dismantling the concept of the Biblical Flood.
Dave
I have an even more embarrassing argument against the Flood. The Witlesses claim that the weight of the water pushed up the mountains, creating a place for the water to go.
And yet the Euphrates. river somehow survived...
(Genesis 2:10-14) 10 Now there was a river issuing out of E´den to water the garden, and from there it began to be parted and it became, as it were, four heads. 11 The first one’s name is Pi´shon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Hav´i·lah, where there is gold. 12 ... 13 And the name of the second river is Gi´hon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Cush. 14 And the name of the third river is Hid´de·kel; it is the one going to the east of As·syr´i·a. And the fourth river is the Eu·phra´tes.
I agree, it's embarassing that I ever accepted this crap to begin with.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Noah%27s_ark#Counter-arguments <- Great site. You'll like it.
hi adolfius!
have you ever checked out talk origin's stuff on the flood? if you haven't, i bet you'll enjoy!
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-flood.html
take care,
tetra
there is a bible account where one angel killed 185000 soldiers in one night.
given that the population of the world at the time of the flood was estimated at between 10 and 20 million then it would only have taken 100 of the myriads upon myriads of angels to have taken out the population at the time.
there would have been no lasting damage to the planet or to the climate...no animals would have been destroyed and it would have been over in the night rather than the year plus that the ark was supposably inhabited for.
and the real perpetrators of the crimes at the time wouldn't have been able to dematerialise and escape.
it's not rocket salad
