(Matthew 11:11-12) 11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.
I can't tell you how many times I used to use that verse to defend our two-class system; the earthly class which would be comprised of our friend mentioned above and us, the lowly ones who didn't have the "heavenly calling". Hey, if John is not going to heaven, we'd say, then the alternative (the earth) can't be that bad since we have to assume John is consigned to be there with us also, now can it? Or so we'd argue.
Looking back, this bothers me as it now looks like a very shallow argument on the part of the JW's. Here's why.
1. John was not dead yet.
2. Jesus' mentioned John as in the present tense -- not some future tense. "...a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."
3. Jesus appeared to be making the point that someone in heaven is greater than someone still on earth. No matter how great and faithful John was at this mention of him, he was still a human and still alive. A lesser one in heaven, Jesus argued, would naturally be greater than John is (at that moment) since John was still a living human.
Is the JW argument truly weak? Are those valid assumptions? What am I missing?
Len Miller
John the Baptist -- too insignificant for heaven?
by Fatfreek 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Fatfreek
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JosephMalik
Jesus appeared to be making the point that someone in heaven is greater than someone still on earth. No matter how great and faithful John was at this mention of him, he was still a human and still alive. A lesser one in heaven, Jesus argued, would naturally be greater than John is (at that moment) since John was still a living human.
Len Miller.
The expression Kingdom of the Heavens is not talking about someone in heaven. It is the Jewish way of saying Kingdom of God. The terms are interchangeable. Read the verse in Luke. Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. Luke wrote for a Greek audience and so used the alternate rendering for this Kingdom. The Gospels do not always quote our Lord precisely but are mindful of the intended audience and we should be aware of this. So what is this all about? Will such a person in this Kingdom go to a place unknown to us called heaven? No! This Kingdom of Heaven (or God) will be right here on earth as promised. Entry is possible only be being selected for this Kingdom either by being resurrected of changed. Furthermore despite John's greatness, he was still mortal. Anyone that that gains entry into this promised Kingdom will be an immortal. But there is something else more important. The NIV renders this more clearly like this: 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. So what does this mean? Up until now the Law provided the vehicle for salvation or entry pointing to such a Kingdom to come. But now since John we have an opportunity to become a part of its administration (Kingdom) and not just a great crowd associated with it's Paradise. Our Lord is not excluding John from being a part of its administration. After all John was there alive and in time for such an administration. In fact forceful men like John would lay hold of it just as our Lord promised. But that would be then in this projected Kingdom since any such administrator at that time would be greater than this very great prophet John was now.
Joseph
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Leolaia
I should first point out that "kingdom of heaven" is a distinctly Matthean expression; it occurs almost everywhere you would see "kingdom of God" in synoptic parrallels. So it is a bit selective to quote Matthew in order to construe a reference to the kingdom as heavenly when this is Matthew's expression of referring to the "kingdom of God" (but see also 5:12, 6:20, 19:21 on having treasures "in heaven"). Moreover, it is unclear whether "heaven" is used to refer to the domain of the kingdom or its ruler, as "heaven" was a frequent Jewish euphemism for "God". That would make "kingdom of heaven" essentially meaning the same thing as "kingdom of God", if that is the meaning.
I would also question whether John the Baptist is really alive within the context of the logion itself. The author has arranged logia on a Markan narrative frame, and it is quite possible that the original Matthean saying in 11:11-12 lacked the narrative context of v. 2, 7 (cf. the parallel in Thomas 46 which lacks a narrative setting). If you look at the saying itself, there is a clear implication that not only do the hémerón Ióanou tou baptistou "days of John the Baptist" lie in the past, but quite some time has passed since then: apo de tonhémerón Ióanou tou baptistou heos arti "but from the days of John the Baptist until now". The tense of estin in v. 11 imho does not controvert this since the gennétois gunaikón "those born of women" (to which JtB is compared) extends both in the past and into the present (cf. the present perfect of egeiró in the clause). Now, it is possible that the "days of John the Baptist" refer only to the time of John's active ministry or the time leading up to Jesus' ministry, but this is not the only (or most natural) way to interpret the expression. Compare Matthew 23:30 which refers to "the days of our forefathers".
Of course, there is no concept in the text of an earthly hope (which JtB has) and a heavenly hope that the followers of Jesus have, but there is a clear discontinuity here of the situation "until John" (v. 13) and the situation "from the days of John the Baptist to now" (v. 12), with John marking the dividing line between the two.
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JosephMalik
Of course, there is no concept in the text of an earthly hope (which JtB has) and a heavenly hope that the followers of Jesus have, but there is a clear discontinuity here of the situation "until John" (v. 13) and the situation "from the days of John the Baptist to now" (v. 12), with John marking the dividing line between the two.
Leolaia,
I did not bother to argue with the point made about John still being alive as it did not matter since John’s existence divided the facts under discussion. Personally I feel that John was already beheaded and dead. But the concept of a heavenly hope is not about a place other than right here. For such reasons our Lord will return once again in the flesh. (Acts 1:11) This was the hope Jews had which was common to them and there was no need to elaborate in this text. After all our Lord said to Martha: Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The immediate result was a resurrection to human life with the main difference at such a future time being immortality. And our Lord also taught: Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So a human existence was anticipated but with a twist which went like this: Lu 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Thus angels are compared to their immortality which Paul emphasized as well. How this all became intertwined with a non-human existence somewhere else is the real mystery.
Joseph
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Fatfreek
Thank you both. Len.
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Mary
11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.
The Witnesses use this scripture to 'prove' that John the Baptist was not heaven bound. If that's the case then why does the scripture say that "the kingdom of heaven is the goal towards which men press"? Giving the WT the benefit of the doubt here, if no one who died before Jesus qualified for heaven, then why did Jesus say it was a goal they were going after and "those pressing forward are seizing it"??
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JosephMalik
Well Mary,
The WT does not understand scripture and very little of what they teach will stand. The sad thing about errors like this is that it conceals the truth, significant in many cases, some vital to life and they will die without ever learning it. They give their allegiance to men and reject the Christ as a consequence even denying Him by refusing to partake of the Passover bread and wine. While we may have some success in recovering from such indoctrination, how much more still lies hidden, waiting to be revealed? We do not yet have all the answers and perhaps the many here will some day come up with a truth yet unknown by the Faith. In my case I give the WT less benefit of the doubt than you, but then again I have had enough of their abuses and lies.
Joseph
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WTWizard
The lame excuse they use is that John the Baptist (who they rudely call John the Baptizer) died before the heavenly calling was open. To me, that makes as much sense as the heavenly calling's being cut off in 1935 or that only 144,000 people would go to heaven. Perhaps I should make another cutoff: After the 6,999,999th publisher comes onboard, Number 7,000,000 should be assured a one-way trip to Gehenna. That is about as sensible as having John the Baptist not being able to go to heaven because of his timing. Bulls***.
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JosephMalik
The lame excuse they use is that John the Baptist (who they rudely call John the Baptizer ) died before the heavenly calling was open.
WTwizard,
How about that! I was just about to add a P.S to Mary to bring this out but you beat me to it. Good for you. Their thinking is that our Lord''s death or perhaps the Pentecost that followed made some sort of difference. But our Lord made such an opportunity available and open since John so we do not have to guess at it. This is so simple it is frightening. Thanks for pointing this out wiz.
Joseph
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JWdaughter
I stumbled on this thread-I am usually not into scriptural discussions anymore. I used to get into them all the time. . .but they made me mad/confused and/or gave me a headache. They seemed fruitless. I guess I still enjoy an interesting and respectful discussion though, because I enjoyed this one. Thanks. I may no longer believe the bible is 'gospel' so to speak, but I had forgotten how interesting such discussions could be.