A mormon fires back at PBS

by LovesDubs 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • LovesDubs
    LovesDubs

    Like we didnt see THIS coming :) My mormon brother who has NOT seen the documentary but DID read this long winded reply from a fellow Mormon, sent this to me for my comments because I told him I HAD watched it. My reply is in the next post. (its long...)

    LD

    Dear PBS,
    > I was disturbed and disappointed in the imbalanced
    > portrayal of the Church of Jesus Christ of
    > Latter-day Saints which you aired on April 30 and
    > May 1, 2007. I wish to state some of my disgust
    > with your method and message. My comments, of
    > course, represent my own views and I am not speaking
    > in any way as an official representative of the LDS
    > Church. Nevertheless, I do have some
    > qualifications: I am an adult convert to the LDS
    > Church; my masters and doctoral degrees included a
    > minor in religious studies; I have been an LDS
    > Religious Educator for 34 years, the last 28 of
    > those at Eastern Washington University, Pennsylvania
    > State University, Brigham Young University, and
    > Oregon State University. I teach World Religions,
    > Bible and Christian History, LDS History and
    > Doctrine. I serve as adjunct faculty of the OSU
    > History Department, and on the Boards of the
    > Holocaust Memorial Committee and Religious Ad visors
    > Association at OSU (the la tter is a coordinating
    > body of the 28 religious groups which function on
    > the campus of Oregon State University). My
    > experience and education have contributed to the
    > sense that producers had just accomplished one of
    > the most seriously skewed programs I've ever seen.
    > When I view "anti-mormon" films and literature, at
    > least they are overt in their mission and purpose;
    > yours, however, was a program from which viewers
    > expect fairness and balance but which delivered just
    > the opposite * a sort of "wolf in sheep's' clothing"
    > experience. You described a church that I do not
    > recognize, which did not portray my beliefs, and
    > almost wholly missed the mark for accurate
    > journalism.
    >
    > My family has been staunch and consistent supporters
    > of PBS both in time, devotion, and money * this
    > program causes me to re-evaluate the respect we have
    > held for you and our future financial support. If
    > on a subject of which I know much, you present such
    > an imbalanced representation, wha t does that mean
    > for so many other programs for which I know little?
    > That is a disturbing thought.
    >
    > Before going further, I wish to recognize the
    > admirable portrayal of certain topics: The
    > international welfare and humanitarian aid efforts
    > of the Church; the conversion story of the former
    > drug addict; and, your sensitive treatment of the
    > challenges of homosexual lifestyle and Church
    > doctrine & practice regarding such. Thank you for
    > those elements.
    >
    > PBS Purpose and Vision For days after the program I
    > sincerely wondered just how the mission and purpose
    > of your presentation had developed. Had it begun
    > ostensibly with the intent to broadly "explore"
    > Mormonism or was it driven by a darker mission?
    > Regardless of the original intent, the show felt
    > like the producers at some point progressively
    > digressed from a balanced exploration to an intent
    > to "expose the under-belly of Mormonism." In an
    > interesting comment from one of my university
    > students, he said t hat he (a new convert) had
    > invited his non-LDS roommates to watch the show with
    > him. During the show he felt terrible and wondered
    > what "damage" he'd done by so inviting them. But
    > afterward, they turned to him and said; "I thought
    > we were going to learn something about your Church
    > in this program but this was just a rehash of all
    > the crap we hear constantly * we didn't learn
    > anything new." By the way, the most uniform
    > observation I heard from students was that from the
    > first minutes of the program, they knew this would
    > be a bad experience * it felt dark, ugly, and
    > ominous.Did the producers and interviewers just
    > become enamored with all the controversy and forget
    > their journalistic responsibility? It's a baffle
    > to me. But the program evidenced a production that
    > seemed intent on:
    > 1) "Knocking Mormonism down a notch or two;"
    > 2) Tipping the "great American religion" off its
    > pedestal" (if it ever were on one); and,
    > 3) portraying Mormon his tory and doctrine as
    > cultic, deceitful and secretive, absurd, and
    > outlandishly weird.
    >
    > What follows is some comment on areas in which I
    > feel you did a disservice and left viewers with
    > skewed and erroneous impressions:
    > Imbalance Krister Stendall, former Dean of Religion
    > at Harvard University and Episcopal bishop of
    > Stockholm, Sweden, has stated 3 rules which guide
    > his participation on interfaith discussion and
    > exploration of other religions. The first two are:
    > 1) "If you're going to ask the question as to what
    > others believe, ask them * not their critics, not
    > their enemies because what one tradition says of
    > another is usually a breach of the 9th commandment *
    > "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
    > neighbour." It is important that we do not picture
    > the other person's faith in a manner they do not
    > recognize as true;
    > 2) "If you're going to compare, don't compare your
    > bests with their worsts. Most think of their own
    > tradition as it is at its best and they use
    > caricatures of the others." In the case of your
    > program, it was not so much one religious view
    > opposing another,
    > it was the slick and sophisticated portrayal of the
    > "intellectual and dissident" view verses the
    > "un-intellectual and blindly obedient" Mormon
    > mainstream and leadership * an unfortunate and
    > mistaken dichotomy.Regarding Stendall's rules, PBS
    > somehow decided to give a time ratio of
    > approximately 10-1 to non-LDS commentators and those
    > who are bitter former members with an axe to grind
    > (several of whom I know personally). Do those
    > persons have a legitimate story to tell and a right
    > to tell it * of course. But those persons were given
    > the overwhelming amount of time and when time was
    > given to the few LDS commentators * particularly in
    > part 1 -- it was in short and awkward clips with
    > little context and sometimes so weird and irrelevant
    > that you wondered why PBS even included the clip.For
    > example, with an almost dismissive manner you
    > trivialized the Book of Mormon by numerous
    > references to a strange and magical translation
    > story, DNA accusations of unreliability, and
    > Antebellum American context for book which you
    > portrayed as very human and very flawed. No matter
    > that the book is among the most widely sold books in
    > the world, that millions of converts trace their
    > conversions to the text, and that intelligent people
    > actually believe it. No, the best you could come up
    > with on a positive note was a non-LDS "poet"
    > commenting on how he really enjoyed the Book of
    > Mormon as a quaint self expose of Joseph Smith and
    > hot button issues in his culture. Additionally,
    > Terryl Givens (a respected author) was given the
    > bulk of his time on the first night to an
    > exploration of Mormon "dance" as theology * what's
    > up with that? Weird, yes; representative, no. So was
    > that the modus operandi of PBS * to emphasize
    > "weird?" Did Givens misrepresent us? No, but the
    > relevance of that portion to LDS history and
    > theology was so insi gnificant and strained, and the
    > presentation so mystical that it effectively
    > conveyed strangeness * a seemingly central intent of
    > the producers. And that relatively irrelevant
    > portion was given more time than any other issue
    > from LDS commentators in program 1 * a shameful
    > misappropriation of time.
    >
    > Mystical strangeness was the hallmark of nearly
    > every piece of art, shadowy background, and eerie
    > music selections which dominated the show and
    > exercised such an oppressive feeling. Did you want
    > to portray Joseph Smith and LDS belief as demented
    > and strange*perhaps even evil? Even the voice
    > intonation and script of the main commentator added
    > to the "secret, strange, and oppressive" aura of the
    > show which focused on the sensational and eschewed
    > the compelling and easy to understand story of the
    > Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its
    > international growth.As such, the expose was
    > masterfully crafted if what PBS wanted to emphasize
    > was "strange, secret, an d oppressive." Watching
    > the show was akin to reading one of the tabloids on
    > the news stand * titillating but unreliable and
    > misrepresentative. Is that what the producers sought
    > to accomplish? If not, one would ask where the art
    > loved by Latter-day Saints was; where was the light,
    > cheery and faith filled art, music, and landscape
    > which so represents us and is produced 100-1 over
    > that which was chosen by the producers? Where were
    > the pictures of Joseph Smith that looked normal? And
    > where were the devoted, faith filled "normal"
    > every-day Latter-day Saints in the show *
    > particularly in Part 1? By the millions, they are
    > the real story of the Latter-day Saints. Where were
    > the intellectuals, scientists, and eminent public
    > servants who believe? Apparently including such
    > would have worked against the purposes of PBS.
    > Doesn't it seem rather contrary to logic to assume
    > that anyone who believes in the Church of Jesus
    > Christ of Latter-day Saints and its doctrine is
    > ignorant, oppressed, or mentally incapable to
    > discern "the real story" astutely "uncovered" by
    > PBS? That's the message your program conveyed.
    > Yes, you did give attention to Mitt Romney and Harry
    > Reid, but the context made no effort to cast them as
    > reasonably intelligent disciples * rather, it was to
    > explore whether a Mormon could be elected to any
    > significant office given the strangeness of this
    > religion.
    >
    > Balance in the Issues In Part 1 (Monday evening),
    > you took roughly the first 100 years of LDS Church
    > history. HALF of that program was reduced to 2
    > events * plural marriage and the Mountain Meadows
    > massacre. The rest was devoted largely to your view
    > of how strange, mysterious, and weird Joseph Smith
    > apparently was. Was that the best you could do for
    > 100 years of history, accomplishment, and
    > contribution?
    >
    > 1) Mountain Meadows * no question about it, this is
    > the darkest piece of LDS history with despicable
    > acts by members and local leaders * tha nk you for
    > including Elder Dallin H. Oaks comment on it. Among
    > historians in and out of the LDS Church, there is
    > significant challenge and varied interpretation in
    > print on this subject and you covered NONE of the
    > debate except a brief statement by one LDS historian
    > who said he was satisfied that blame did not lay in
    > the office of Brigham Young. But he had maybe 3
    > seconds, compared to 20 minutes by critic
    > historians. The truth is, the most debatable aspect
    > of this story is the knowledge and responsibility of
    > Brigham Young. You gave that debate almost no time,
    > not even mentioning it as a legitimate point of
    > disagreement among qualified historians.After
    > allowing critics to lambaste Church responsibility
    > for the event you feature a preposterous summary
    > statement as proof that the murderous edict came
    > from Brigham Young * "Young was governor of the
    > territory and nothing happened without his
    > knowledge." What a silly statement. The Utah
    > territory was a big c hunk of land (encompassing
    > current Nevada, Utah, and parts of Wyoming and
    > Colorado), and pre-dated telegraph services at the
    > time (Mountain Meadows was a 3-day hard ride from
    > SLC). Just how did Brigham Young magically control
    > and know "everything" going on in the territory?
    > And how about the indisputable historical record
    > that a rider was sent to Young to get advice on the
    > pending crisis but could not have arrived,
    > conferred, and returned before the massacre had
    > occurred?On a related matter, consider the
    > restrained position of Brigham Young regarding not
    > harming any individual from the invading forces of
    > the United States Army who were heading into the
    > valley? He did direct harassment and the capture of
    > supply wagons; he did prepare members to once again
    > leave their homes in the valley and to burn them if
    > necessary to give the army no benefit from arriving
    > in SLC. But it is well known that with all the
    > skirmishes and threat, no direction was ever given
    > to contest by firearms the invasion. Doesn't that
    > seem a little contrary to Brigham Young then turning
    > around and ordering the deaths of men, women, and
    > children in an immigrating pioneer train? So where
    > was the balance in the PBS report on this issue?
    > You strongly accused Young and others of "running
    > out of town" federal officials sent to govern Utah.
    > But where was the coverage of those same officials
    > acting illegally and mistreating the saints? Again,
    > that was a balance you seemed uninterested in
    > covering.
    >
    > 2) Plural Marriage * here again, where were the
    > first-hand journal records of this policy and
    > practice being a blessing to people, a trial of
    > faith that in the end strengthened their testimony
    > of Joseph Smith's inspiration in the matter and of
    > the Lord's hand in this? No where to be found. But
    > by far the greatest disservice done in the PBS
    > report and other writings on this subject was to
    > cast it as a sex-crazed policy of a lunatic gone mad
    > with power * as though this practice was invented by
    > Joseph Smith. Did you check into this interpretation
    > * or was it just the sensational and pejorative that
    > you were interested in?
    > Point One: Plural marriage was a common Bible
    > practice. COMMON * not exceptional and weird to
    > Bible peoples. All Bible believers, both Jewish and
    > Christian must wrestle with that. And Jesus himself
    > held up as the quintessential prophets and people
    > of faith those who practiced plural marriage
    > (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc.). The Savior
    > even went so far as to liken himself to the great
    > Moses and heaven to Abrahams' bosom. Sounds like
    > Jesus didn't have a problem with the practice. But
    > did you mention that? Of course not * it didn't
    > seem to fit in your production purposes. After all,
    > that would make plural marriage in modern times a
    > restoration of lauded biblical precedent instead of
    > a weird invention of Joseph Smith * not a message
    > you apparently wanted to r isk conveying. Latter-day
    > Saints do not apologize for following the Lord's
    > direction on this matter. We have nothing to hide.
    > I may personally never wish to participate in the
    > practice but it is not a source of
    > embarrassment.Point Two: Did you look into the
    > history of this with Joseph Smith? Do you know that
    > while studying the Bible he came across the plural
    > marriages of these early venerated prophets and was
    > in such shock that he went to the Lord in prayer to
    > ask how in the world such a practice could be
    > acceptable? And to his dismay and disgust, he was
    > answered by the Lord * but not with an answer he
    > could have ever imagined. In our publicly
    > accessible scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants 132)
    > the Lord answers by saying that He would tell Joseph
    > Smith the answer, but once He did, Joseph would be
    > asked to live the same law. This is among the best
    > known and accessible of historical records on the
    > subject but was never mentioned by you. And what a
    > surprise * none of the critics mentioned it
    > either!Point Three: You erroneously portrayed
    > plural marriage as an LDS requirement to enter
    > heaven. That is how many fundamentalist polygamists
    > think (you gave a lot of coverage to them!). But
    > that has never been the doctrine of the LDS Church.
    > Celestial marriage is a practice whereby two worthy
    > individuals enter a marriage covenant and have it
    > sealed by one having priesthood authority * period.
    > That policy includes monogamous and plural marriages
    > but the latter does not overshadow the former. You
    > altogether failed to make this distinction in your
    > show even though you devoted 40 minutes to the
    > subject And where were the respected LDS voices on
    > the beauty of this belief? No where to be found in
    > your skewed representation.
    >
    > 3) Missionary Service * In night two, you devoted a
    > fair amount of time to a subject which deserves it *
    > the amazing missionary program of the Church. But
    > what was t he dominant message you conveyed? It was
    > that LDS missionaries are mindless automatons doing
    > what they cannot choose not to do * no choice, no
    > choice, no choice * "you go, you go, you just go,"
    > was the repeated message. And then to make things
    > worse, 3 of the 4 voices you gave time to were
    > missionaries who apparently went under real or
    > imagined duress and subsequently abandoned the LDS
    > Church. What a disservice * skewed and bigoted,
    > flawed and incomplete. You portrayed such service,
    > the LDS culture which encourages it, and the Church
    > program which sponsors it as oppressive, mechanical,
    > and regimented to the point of intellectual and
    > emotional pain. It was Jesus that "commanded" (yes,
    > commanded * not lightly "suggested") that disciples
    > go into all the world and preach repentance, faith
    > in the Lord Jesus Christ, baptism, and enduring in
    > obedience to the gospel * "Mormons" didn't make that
    > up.Over the years, I have worked with hundreds of
    > young men and wo men and older couples who were
    > preparing and did serve missions. In my experience
    > less than 1% have any such feelings which you
    > portrayed as "normal." They deeply desired to
    > serve, they saved and sacrificed to serve, and they
    > count the time as the best years of their lives.
    > Where was that message in your presentation? You
    > did give the positive some time but there again, it
    > was minor compared to the negative interpretation.
    > I can again, only surmise that the overwhelmingly
    > positive experience of hundreds of thousands of
    > individuals was of little interest to you * you had
    > a purpose and that overwhelming set of evidence did
    > not fit within your purposes so you largely left it
    > out.To your credit however, you did give liberal
    > time to the story of one woman convert and how the
    > gospel had blessed her. Also, you allowed Marlin K.
    > Jensen to tell his mission experience. Thank you
    > for doing that.
    >
    > 4) The LDS Church is secretively rich and power h
    > ungry * I think you would have done well to return
    > to the public record on this and how President
    > Gordon B. Hinckley has repeatedly summarized in
    > public interviews the wealth of the Church. Most of
    > that wealth is in income consuming, not income
    > producing ventures * the bulk of which are chapels
    > and other worship and welfare structures and land.To
    > the amazing credit and faithfulness of members, many
    > do fully observe the Law of Tithing and pay 10% of
    > their income to the Church * we don't look at that
    > as a suppressive burden But again, that's a
    > biblical precedence of which we again follow in our
    > day whereas you portrayed it as a mysterious coupe
    > accomplished by secretive power hungry church
    > leaders. "They have devious plans and bilk their
    > members so they can exercise power over them to get
    > personal gain and insure that no one questions their
    > practices" * was the ridiculous mystique purveyed by
    > critics. It's just plain wrong on its face, wrong
    > in fact, an d wrong in interpretation but none of
    > that deterred the producers.
    >
    > For many years I have been part of and witness to
    > the extraordinary auditing practices of the Church
    > to insure that all sacred funds are handled legally
    > and appropriately * I can assure you that it is done
    > in minute detail. In addition, the Church hires
    > non-LDS auditing services to assess its handling of
    > these funds and to make an annual public statement.
    > While the individual expenditures are not public
    > record, those expenditures are publicly audited (a
    > requirement by the Federal government for
    > "non-profit" organizations).
    >
    > I am grateful for the law of tithing, that as
    > members we can share the blessings granted us and
    > elevate our brothers and sisters around the world
    > both in and out of LDS membership. Tithing monies
    > allows the work to go forward throughout the world
    > and those few leaders (very few by comparison), who
    > do receive a living stipend receive very little.
    > They are poore r than if they held normal jobs in
    > the world and anyone who portrays the leaders as
    > accessing income from tithing funds to live
    > luxuriously is mistaken. Those who publicly portray
    > this message are ill-informed or downright
    > dishonest.
    >
    > You did equally poorly on the portrayal of temples
    > and their purposes, on Church disciplinary councils,
    > and governance. I am very familiar with these
    > issues and you did not portray an honest and
    > balanced perspective. Again and again your cast and
    > backdrops were intended to convey strangeness,
    > weirdness, thoughtless obedience, and extreme
    > authoritarianism on the part of LDS leaders and the
    > membership. You portrayed little respect, a great
    > deal of antagonism, and a general avoidance of the
    > grandness of the Church and its doctrines. One
    > wonders just how the LDS Church could be growing at
    > all given your abysmal assessment. Was that irony
    > lost on you? Or do you simply explain it by
    > adjudging LDS members and c onverts to be from the
    > poor and downtrodden, the uneducated and desperate
    > and hence largely unknowledgeable and
    > indiscriminate?
    >
    > I could go on with other subjects but I hope I have
    > adequately made the point. I'm sorry that you chose
    > to do the show you did. I think you have done a
    > serious disservice to the viewing public and to the
    > reputation of PBS. I believe that viewers were left
    > with erroneous ideas and impressions and the
    > responsibility for that lies directly on your
    > shoulders.
    >
    > Thomas E. Sherry, May 8, 2007
    >

  • LovesDubs
    LovesDubs

    Dear Bro:

    I read most of what Mr. Sherry said...his shackles are up of course...and that is a normal reaction to having anybody not of your own faith, try to portray it in a way that a member would find "fair". My guess is that no matter how balanced the producer tried to make this, condensing over a hundred years of history into a four hour program..she would have failed in the eyes of the Mormons. That is pretty much a gimme. I would suggest then, with the extensive wealth of the church that they produce their own, and perhaps they have, so that the things that Mr. Sherry said were missing, understated, overstated, misrepresented or artfully omitted would have a voice satisfactory to the LDS's members and proponents. The best defense is a good offense.

    I suggest you do watch it Curt. Just for the sake of discussion so you can see what other people saw and draw your own conclusions about it. I learned a lot about the history of the Church that I didn't know at all before. The good the bad and the ugly...and there isn't another church on the planet who doesn't have all of those components in its history, I guarantee it. But that is what makes it strong in the long run. Overcoming adversities, learning from mistakes, correcting views, reviewing beliefs and making adjustments. Every church does that. And just because a group changes doesn't make it less credible. The further a church is from mainstream Christianity established over 2000 years...the wackier they look. Been there done that. If I may be up front about it, I belonged to a "high control" sect for 13 years and the LDS is also a high control group. There are rules. The guys...and they are ALL guys...at the top make the rules and the rank and file follow those rules or they are out of the group. The premise is pretty simple. You don't like it here...there's the door. This program showed a maturation of the church over the years and a forming of it as if from clay, and then a honing of the shape of it, and over the years a baking of the clay to make it firm and strong. Many many lives were given and were taken in the process during the prosecution of the Mormons, and during their travels across the country under God awful conditions to find a place of their own to live in peace...and their fighting back against what they perceived as the enemy..those "peoples" (not the individuals but people from the same AREA even) who had killed Joseph Smith in prison. Personally I was amazed to find out Mormons bear (or bore) arms and weren't afraid to kill for their beliefs. I think the common conception is that Mormons are peaceful and nonviolent...and always were. That was a surprise to me. I appreciated the way Brigham Young stepped up and kept Smith's vision alive...rounded up his followers and didn't give up. There was SOMETHING holding those folks together. History has shown that there were many "prophets" that rose up during the 1800s particularly, and churches were founded on many of them that survive even today. Some of their founders wackier than a fruit cake. (see Ellen G. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) Joseph may have been seriously delusional or a visionary but he had a love for God that drew people to him and hey...God has used simple men all along. Fishermen, farmers, carpenters...to be his prophets so why not Joseph? The Bible says "if it is not of God, God will destroy it." Well...so far so good. I'd say VERY good...where the success of this church is concerned. There were many reviews of this program that I read right afterwards, and they were varied from one extreme to the other but many were favorable reviews from Mormons too. Many like myself learned a lot from it. Im a pretty critical person. I have a modicum of intellect and I know Im not getting the whole picture in four hours and Im pretty sure most people watching this...and you had to WANT to watch it to watch it...know they arent get 100% of all information out there on the LDS. The interviews went the full gamut from gushing members to critics to ex members to new members, historians and biographers...I didn't come away thinking that it was meant to bash anybody at all. It gave the good and the bad. But seriously MOSTLY good things about the church. I knew enough about it going in that I would have noticed immediately if the purpose of the piece was to denigrate the church. PBS aired this thing and they aren't about to piss off MILLIONS of Mormons out there many of whom have deep pockets and support PBS. I came away feeling the pride of the members. The strength and determination of the members. The love of God of the members. The incredible beauty of the way they worship which wasn't limited to the gorgeous temples all over the world. The deep seated love and importance...of family. They interviewed young men doing their missions and it went both ways...from coming back disillusioned to coming back rock hard in the faith from the experience. Which I believe portrays the reality. It shows the missionaries doing their preaching work and being treated like lepers out there and I can soooo relate to that having done door to door work myself all those years. NOTHING is harder than selling your religion to somebody else. They interviewed a teenager who found out she had a terminal illness and her incredible faith, and that of her family, and the tight knit group of people who surrounded her made me weep for her. She was CERTAIN she was going to see all of them again and they were CERTAIN they would be with her again because they were all sealed to each other. And that was keeping them happy and close. I was pretty taken by that. What a concept...I think Brigham Young came up with that sealing ceremony to keep husbands and wives together for eternity and to keep their children together with them for all eternity. Very powerful. The whole thing about bigamy and the massacre and all that stuff in the past that nobody is proud of was mentioned and explained and enough said. Nobody wants their dirty laundry out there, but as a JW I saw plenty of it...and when I really got into the history of the JWs and read accounts that WERENT written by JWs...I got a clearer picture of it all. If someone wants to be a Mormon, they are going to learn about the church as it is today and its history from a variety of sources. The church is what it is today because of those skeletons in the closet. What better way to increase your faith than to be tested and overcome even the most powerful of adversaries and persecutions? That is what makes the church invincible and its walls impenetrable. People like Sherry, though the Mormons rally around his kind of reply, shouldn't throw darts at the messengers of what they perceive to be misstatements but should counter publicly with what they believe is the real truth of the matter. You don't gain anything by killing the messenger except the perception that maybe the messenger was right about things you know? If Mr. Sherry put out a reply documentary, I would watch it. I watched the first one because I wanted to learn something. I had an interest. And so apparently, did many other people. I dare say because of that documentary, people went and inquired into becoming Mormons and that cant be a bad thing. And if people left the church after viewing that documentary, trust me, they were headed for the door anyway. I still have a problem digesting the concept of Baptism of the Dead. That just doesn't sit well with me. They interviewed a Jewish man who had gone through the Death Camps and was there BECAUSE he was Jewish and he found out that the Mormons were baptizing people like him who had survived Auschwitz and were baptizing them after death and now listing them as MORMON. He was very very upset by that. He was JEWISH and didn't want anyone looking him up some day and seeing MORMON listed as his religion. The Church conceded that they would go back and "undo" anyone whom they had baptized post mortem who were Jewish during the Holocaust. Like its some switch you can flip on and off. I don't get that still. The piece showed couples getting married in the temple and how rigorous their preparations were for having the privilege of being married there. They had to meet detailed standards to do it and they had to understand the seriousness of the bond of marriage. That would account for the low divorce rate amongst Mormons. I mean...that has to be a good thing no matter how you cut it. The families stay together for the most part and keeping the kids close, marrying within the religion and staying deeply involved in the workings of the church keeps them on the right track. Successful happy members means a successful and bountiful church that everyone benefits from. From where I sit though, becoming a Mormon from scratch like...after having your head stuffed with other religious gunk for decades would be akin to trying to change your skin color! One would have to purge ones brain and refill it with totally new concepts and be ready to give up the life patterns you were used to in order to succeed with the process. I don't know how you did it. Kudos to you. Anyway...are you regretting having asked me yet? LOL! Seriously...take some time to watch it. See if it matches what you yourself have learned over the last what...16 years? Id be curious to know. Proverbs 18:13 says basically that if a man gives an answer to something before he hears the facts of the matter, it is folly. So T-Vo that sucker and watch it. :) Love ya always,

  • smellsgood
    smellsgood

    3) portraying Mormon his tory and doctrine as
    > cultic, deceitful and secretive, absurd, and
    > outlandishly weird.

    OH, you know, Israelites coming to the Americas 2500 years ago, the bizarre and utterly fictitious history in the Book of Mormon, the Temple underwear, the "sealing" of a wife to a husband, the POLYGAMY, baptising at a furious rate all dead people, the doctrine of Black people being basically little Satans incarnate, the polytheistic God was a man and is corporal, no, you know, I don't see why this comes across as cultic, absurd or outlandishly weird. But then again I don't see why more people don't accept excessive consumption of vodka as a cure for herpes.

    <<Regarding Stendall's rules, PBS
    > somehow decided to give a time ratio of
    > approximately 10-1 to non-LDS commentators and those
    > who are bitter former members with an axe to grind
    > (several of whom I know personally). >>

    Did he actually do a headcount? I'm pretty sure I saw the same thing as him, and my count was exactly ONE ex-member being interviewed. He was weilding a chipped old axe ironically.
    Sweet dear cult members, always demonising and understanding the ex-member only as a vengeful, hate-filled maniac who's sole purpose is to lie and smear their former religion.

    For
    > example, with an almost dismissive manner you
    > trivialized the Book of Mormon by numerous
    > references to a strange and magical translation
    > story,

    Which is exactly how Joseph Smith related it. Strange and magical it was. Do they deny that what happened in Josephs own words was the Angel Moroni gave him those tablets, and he used the seer stone and the urimm and thummin to translate it? Do they also want to deny that Joseph Smith had a beard? Wore pants? Didn't die a martyr but went out with guns blazing?

    > DNA accusations of unreliability,

    Ummmmm, yes, the DNA has PROVEN that as all non bewitched members of the American culture already knew, that the Native Americans in this country DID NOT descend from Israelites. It's just a fact, but of course, Mormonism wouldn't recognise a fact unless it was the "fact" that they are right. About everything. Hallelujah and thank the prophetless.

    and
    > Antebellum American context for book which you
    > portrayed as very human and very flawed. No matter
    > that the book is among the most widely sold books in
    > the world, that millions of converts trace their
    > conversions to the text, and that intelligent people
    > actually believe it.


    Wow, then Harry Potter must be a true story since its sold (I thought the BOM was free?) millions of copies and has been read by millions of people. Intelligence has nothing to do with the innate ability of so many of us to be duped, hoodwinked, swindled and otherwise intellectually taken captive by inane and ridiculous codswallop. Bottom line: Intelligence does not innoculate you from being deceived.

    HALF of that program was reduced to 2
    > events * plural marriage and the Mountain Meadows
    > massacre. The rest was devoted largely to your view
    > of how strange, mysterious, and weird Joseph Smith
    > apparently was. Was that the best you could do for
    > 100 years of history, accomplishment, and
    > contribution?

    When Joseph Smith is the sole founder, and writer of your modern "revelations" that "complete the work of Jesus" and are the most "vital means necessary for salvation" (paraphr.) then, yeah, the fact that 12 million or above people follow this man's insanity will put him under just a little bit of scrutiny. If I wrote down in a book that I was the descendant and rightful heir to the British crown, it wouldn't make it true, and perhaps there would be that dratted DNA tests they would insist on before they took my word for it. :)

    Latter-day
    > Saints do not apologize for following the Lord's
    > direction on this matter.

    Really? He's contradicting what the "higher ups" on the program publicly stated. That plural marriage was not good, and they were forbidden to practice it.

    > We have nothing to hide.
    > I may personally never wish to participate in the
    > practice but it is not a source of
    > embarrassment.Point Two: Did you look into the
    > history of this with Joseph Smith? Do you know that
    > while studying the Bible he came across the plural
    > marriages of these early venerated prophets and was
    > in such shock that he went to the Lord in prayer to
    > ask how in the world such a practice could be
    > acceptable? And to his dismay and disgust, he was
    > answered by the Lord * but not with an answer he
    > could have ever imagined. In our publicly
    > accessible scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants 132)
    > the Lord answers by saying that He would tell Joseph
    > Smith the answer, but once He did, Joseph would be
    > asked to live the same law.

    That's what he wrote. I could write that I was shocked and appalled to learn that people had eaten pomegranetes, while privately wanting one like crazy. And conveniently when I prayed to God to ask him about it, He said he would only answer me if I would do it just the same as those other people. Whom I knew had eaten pomegranetes. Oh, well, what a drag, now I have to eat one. I really *hate* this!

    You portrayed little respect, a great
    > deal of antagonism, and a general avoidance of the
    > grandness of the Church and its doctrines. One
    > wonders just how the LDS Church could be growing at
    > all given your abysmal assessment. Was that irony
    > lost on you?

    Growth is all that matters. If it is only volume and growth that matters to evaluate the worthiness of a cause, religion, or even a product, that standing alone seems an alarmingly backwards criterion. I guess that folgers coffee must be the most delicious and best because there is more of it for sale than other coffees. Bacteria grow. Scientology is growing. Wal Mart is the largest retailer on the planet.


    nuf said. :)


    I love the cheeky wee Mormons


    smellsgood

  • moshe
    moshe

    Mormons and JW's just hate an informed public. It never registers in their brain that 99.8% of the public might just be right in it's refusal to accept their religion.

  • bebu
    bebu

    Impressive reply, lovesdubs! You can write any upcoming essays and papers I may have to do within the next coupla years. If I were your bro, I would be swayed into checking it out myself.

    smellsgood, you are a cheeky wee thing yourself! LOL

    bebu

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Smellsgood said:

    <
    > somehow decided to give a time ratio of
    > approximately 10-1 to non-LDS commentators and those
    > who are bitter former members with an axe to grind
    > (several of whom I know personally). >>

    Did he actually do a headcount? I'm pretty sure I saw the same thing as him, and my count was exactly ONE ex-member being interviewed.

    Smellsgood, read his quote again, please. He said, "approximately 10-1 to NON-LDS COMMENTATORS and those who are bitter former members with an axe to grind."

    He did not say "10-1 were bitter former members". Please quote him correctly. If you object to what he says, at least give him credit or blame for what he actually says and not confuse the issue further by misquoting him.

    And, no, it wasn't necessary to do any elaborate counting. We, also, went back over the video to see how "balanced" it was ... pro-LDS vs. anti-LDS. It was easy to simply count the air time given to the anti side versus the pro side. A 10-1 ratio of anti comments to pro comments can hardly be called "balanced" by any reasonable definition of the term.

    Yes, we did expect to have the very issues addressed which were addressed. That was a given. It was not shocking to hear them, nor was it a faith-buster. They have never been secret. What was not expected, though, was to have FIVE MINUTES of anti-LDS commentary for every THIRTY SECONDS of pro-LDS comments. How is this fair? How is this balanced?

    Although non-LDS love to see anti's slinging mud at the Mormons, fair is fair, and this was not. Balanced, by definition, requires equal time pro and con.

    It didn't happen.

    Susan

  • bebu
    bebu
    Balanced, by definition, requires equal time pro and con.

    Susan, I have found that the many times I have waited for an answer for the "pro"... the eventual response is always, "Pray and ask God if this is true. He'll give you a sign (burning bosom)." This is what it has always gotten down to when no one could answer a good question. I've also heard, "It doesn't matter what you show me. I give you my testimony...."

    Moroni's challenge to us is to sincerely read the Book of Mormon and to ask God in the name of Jesus Christ if the Book of Mormon is true. Moroni promises that if we do these things, God will reveal to us by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true! I give you my testimony that I know by that power that the Book of Mormon is true.

    That's always the final word! (Above came from an LDS website btw)

    Not trying to be mean-spirited here, though it sounds like it, but this has just ALWAYS been my experience! I am always interested in reading good apologetics from Mormons, but it hits a wall fast and requires a huge leap all while ignoring glaring problems.

    I wouldn't ask people to ignore what they honestly consider glaring problems toward any faith, including my own. If the Mormons could answer the comments and criticisms without requiring viewers to be biased (to ignore red flags vs be open-minded), then maybe there would have been a more equitable split of time. But they cut to the "testimony" just like the JWs cut to "wait on Jehovah".

    Having said that, documentaries by PBS are interesting but often sound like they are the last word. They can be annoying sometimes. I take their shows with the approach that I can research on my own those things which sound incredible or biased. So I hope anyone, LDS or not, will relax and just review those areas which may --or may not-- be as PBS presented.

    bebu

  • dawg
    dawg

    For the love of everything sacred, please tell me where this mormon gets his weed! He's in another world like all members of every cult I've ever read.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    I have to admit, I got stuck ("stumbled"?) pretty early in the monologue:

    Krister Stendall, former Dean of Religion at Harvard University and Episcopal bishop of Stockholm, Sweden, has stated 3 rules which guide his participation on interfaith discussion and exploration of other religions.

    The first two are:

    1) "If you're going to ask the question as to what others believe, ask them not their critics, not their enemies because what one tradition says of another is usually a breach of the 9th commandment ("Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.") It is important that we do not picture the other person's faith in a manner they do not recognize as true;

    2) "If you're going to compare, don't compare your bests with their worsts.

    These are rules that would probably be supported by Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists as well as the LDS Church. I think probably substance abusers would also find these "rules" appealing. To paraphrase,

    "If you want to know what substance abuse is really like, ask junkies, not doctors."

    Any legitimate analysis must ask THE HARD QUESTIONS. Religionists who can't take the heat ought not be in the kitchen.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I watched it online and loved it.

    Obviously I wondered why they spent so much time on the Mountain Meadows Massacre:
    1/ No proven Brigham Young link ergo speculation.
    2/ SLC LDS at war tensions unbelievably high.
    3/ LDS beaten/raped/murdered/subject to an extermination order (if the JWs want to know what persecution means this is it.)
    4/ Leader 'recently' killed
    5/ The government have proven time and again unwilling to help and very anxious to attack.
    6/ Nowhere left to run.

    In light of the above the tragedy is remarkable in its uniqueness and limited scope.

    As for anti LDS bias that's great - if the LDS faith wants any kind of robust life it needs challenge. The LDS have one of the best apologetics teams going , very educated people actively researching the material and questioning old assumptions. Why? because for a long time we had no answer to the media pap that the anti-LDS cooked up. The existence of the LDS intelectual apologetic is therefore a response to which we owe much to the anti-LDS.

    The Israelite DNA cr*p is trotted out here again and again. Will someone who is a real biologist please stop this lunacy or anyone who actually has some Israelite DNA from 2500 years ago to show us what they mean???. If you want to show the fallacy of LDS Hebrew claims DNA is not a good indicator since the input to the local population numbered in the tens (one small boatload) into a local population that had at least one Asiatic race that numbered in the millions (who had a large battle and wiped themselves out as a unified culture.) For a handful of people's DNA to be traceable 2500 years later from a huge starting population is the sort of bad science that makes the educated LDS laugh. http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon_2.html.

    The other side that people can't seem to get over is th elingering hope that there is something dodgy and nasty and horrible going on but really all they can do is make a couple of 5 year olds jokes about underwear and handshakes and that's about it. The LDS people as a culture are brilliant - sure you'll always find someone who had a bad experience and blame the church for their abusive father/violent mother/lack of friends and so on but the reality is all around in Salt Lake City, its in the dedication of the architects who build our structures, its in the striving for excellence on an intellectual and physical level that provides a subsidised college/renowned choir and great artists and its in the desire for good wholesome living of LDS families. The problem is that when you get 'good' people it tends to stick in people's craws and they are desperate to pull them down, justify themselves in another's weakness and when they find one person who's mistakes they can see then they paint every mormon up as a secret porn freak/child abuser/satanist/dannite/spouse beater.

    I've lived in the LDS community and they aren't perfect but they aren't weird, they are generally ultra laid back, fun, willing to engage in discussion and have a high level of belief and practical application of their faith. If people wish to stand around talking about crazy beliefs post some of yours up here and I'll return the favour.

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