GB member Gerrit Losch - Special Talk - the 6 comings of Christ (LONG)

yaddayadda

Saw this posted on the ewatchman website. Pretty much just the usual drivel by the WTS. (Sorry for lack of formatting):

Hello friends! Today our regularly scheduled meeting was cancelled and instead we were tied in by telephone line to a Zone Overseer talk. The Zone Overseer turned out to be GB member, Gerrit Lösch. The theme of his talk was "What Does the Future Hold?" (if I remembered correctly, lol) To help you out, I have colored my comments in blue, GB=Governing Body, GT=Great Tribulation, BtG=Babylon the Great, KH=Kingdom Hall, KoN=King of the North, and lol=laughing out loud (hope I didn't miss any).

He started off by saying that the GB is not American, and he ran through the list of members, where they were from if they were not American, and if they were American he mentioned how many children they raised in the truth.

He then proceeded to tell us that his talk would discuss the 6 comings of Christ. At this point I grabbed pen and paper. I will try to share my notes to the best of my ability. Consider all thoughts to be paraphrased and not exact quotes, unless I happen to point out that something is an exact quote! I will list the "comings" of Christ in the order he explained:

1. Rev. 6:2-8, where he mentioned the white horse, the red horse, the black horse, and the pale horse. He explained that the scripture where it says:

(Revelation 6:6) . . ."A quart of wheat for a de?nar'i?us, and three quarts of barley for a de?nar'i?us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine."

means that in some parts of the world food would be VERY expensive (thus the cost of a quart of wheat), but that in other parts of the world luxury items (olive oil and wine) would be plentiful. This was a new thought to me about the luxury items. Anyone ever hear this explanation before? Maybe I have not been paying close attention. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_redface.gif)

He specifically applied verses 2 and 4 to 1914 (WWI). He then went on to say that it is easy to prove that Jesus started ruling in 1914 aside from any chronology. He then supported this statement with

(Revelation 12:5) 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne.

and

(Revelation 12:7) 7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi'cha?el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled

and made the comment that Jesus conquered (was victorious). He stated that the woe mentioned in

(Revelation 12:11-12) . . .. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.". . .

resulted in WWI and pointedly commented that the woe does NOT result in Armageddon. I believe he repeated this point for emphasis. Okay, so that's his take on this 1st coming of Jesus Christ.

Now for #2. This started off with

(Malachi 3:1) 3 "Look! I am sending my messenger, and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the [true] Lord, whom YOU people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant in whom YOU are delighting. Look! He will certainly come," Jehovah of armies has said.

Bro. Lösch said that this is when Jesus came to refine and cleanse his people, which occurred during 1917-1919. He said that brothers made mistakes during those years and Jehovah wasn't pleased, so there was punishment due (captivity to Babylon) but that Jehovah brought them back from captivity.

He mentioned some of these sins: The WT encouraged people to pray for the victory of the U.S. in WWI so that democracy would spread and they would have an easier time of preaching the good news. This was a violation of Christian neutrality. Also, the WT encouraged people to buy war bonds, and some brothers put on a uniform and went to war. They came back from the war proudly stating that they never killed anyone because anytime they shot off their guns they shot them only into the air (upwards towards the heavens I guess). These were also violations of Christian neutrality.

He then talked about how some venerated Charles Taze Russell and a cult developed. These people left the WT org., thus they were cleansed out. See? Some wanted Rutherford to give up his power as President and share it with others. They left. And the org. was once again cleansed. Those remaining were restored to a condition of spiritual paradise.

So, to sum it up, Jesus 2nd coming was to refine and cleanse his people.

Moving on to coming #3. This time Jesus came to resurrect anointed Christians. This is the First Resurrection as stated at

(Revelation 20:6) 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

He also referenced

(John 14:2-3) 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.

and stated "that events in history indicate this possibly started in 1918." He did not go on to mention any of the events in history that possibly might indicate this, but did mention

(Revelation 14:13) 13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say: "Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with [the] Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them."

and emphasized "from this time onward" meaning that as faithful anointed died from that point forward they would be resurrected instantaneously and are part of that 1st resurrection.

The 4th coming of Jesus starts off with Matth. 24:3 being quoted. He stated that "where it says presence some translations say return." He then went on to explain the Greek word parousia and said it means to be alongside. He said this is not referring to a point in time, but a period of time. He also mentioned how presence is the opposite of absence. He stated this occurred in 1914 and used

(Matthew 24:7) 7 "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.

and

(Matthew 24:14) 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

as proof.

Too bad he skipped over the scriptures in between! Namely......(Matthew 24:9-12) 9 "Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one anotherwill hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off.

and

In regards to Matt. 24:14, he said that if we take part in the preaching work we are part of a visible proof of Christ's invisible presence. He mentioned that on average 24 new congregations are formed each week, and every weekend on average there are 4,700 baptized. He stated, "Can we say that this scripture is being fulfilled now? Yes!"

I wonder why he left out the stats of how many are DF'd or DA'd each week, and how many congregations are dissolved over the course of a year. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Let's move on to Jesus Christ's 5th coming. He cites

(Matthew 24:30) 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

and says, "This has not happened yet." Hooray! A truth! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ban_dance01.gif)

He goes on to say that this sign appears in heaven, and not on earth, and that it happens immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then he launches into a discussion that the great tribulation has 3 parts, a beginning, a final part, and a middle. He states that the GT begins with the destruction of false religion, and that the sign in heaven only appears at this time.

Then he moves on to the 6th and final coming of Jesus. He cites
(Matthew 24:42) 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

as the final coming, and reiterates that we don't know when. He cites

(Matthew 25:13) 13 "Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU know neither the day nor the hour.

and then mentions

(Revelation 1:7) 7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

And states that this coming is still future. Okay, another truth, but if you read the Revelation Climax book, on page 19 they tie Rev. 1:7 in with Matt. 24:30, so it gets a little confusing, since he has now relegated Matt. 24:30 to the 5th coming, and not the 6th coming. Which is it?

He explains that the part where it says "every eye will see him" is said in the sense that the destruction coming upon them is not a natural disaster, but that they will know it's a prophesied judgement coming upon earth.

Okay, now that he has outlined the 6 comings of Jesus (silly me, I thought there were only 2), he moves on to discuss what we can expect to happen in the near future.

He cites

(1 Thessalonians 5:3) 3 Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security!" then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.

and explains that this is still future and could be some future proclamation (as if they are saying they have peace and security) OR this could be an expression of their desire to have peace and security.

Then moves on to

(Matthew 24:15-16) 15 "Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju?de'a begin fleeing to the mountains.

saying that there was a mini-fulfillment in the 1st century. The disgusting thing back then was the Roman army. Their 1st attack in 66 C.E. was the start of their great tribulation, and for some unknown reason Gallus withdrew, which gave Christians the opportunity to flee. Why was the Roman army the disgusting thing? Because of the Roman standards they carried, which were used like flags are used today. In 70 C.E. Titus returns, and destroys Jerusalem.

He says something about a prophetic parallel, saying that the UN is the disgusting thing today, but then states that Christendom=Jerusalem. Boy, is he in for a surprise!

He says fleeing for us today means getting out of Babylonish religion, and that fleeing back in the 1st century was accompanied by the loss of material things, such as businesses, homes, and personal belongings. He stated that we need to expect the same things, and asked, Does it makes sense to pursue material things (like a career, business, new home, etc.), since in all probability we will lose all these things?

He stated that the governments destroy Babylon the Great, namely the UN. He talked about the standard WT explanation of
(Revelation 17:8) 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.

(League of Nations, then reappearing as UN) He specifically stated that the beast came out from the abyss of inactivity in 1945. After referencing

(Revelation 17:16) 16 And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.

he stated that the governments will confiscate all of BtG's bank accounts and buildings, and will put the clergy into prison, and possibly put them to death. The only religion remaining will be Jehovah's Witnesses! ALL RELIGIONS EXCEPT JW'S WILL BE DESTROYED!

Somehow he skipped the part where Jehovah's organization is laid low and the towers fall, and Jehovah's sheep are scattered, etc. Maybe that page of his notes fluttered away in the breeze. Oh wait, he was indoors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

He goes on to explain how in 66 C.E. only TRUE CHRISTIANS were saved. And basically said that pattern will be repeated in our day. He cited

(Revelation 7:9) 9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

and

(Revelation 7:14) 14 So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

and tells us that the future holds preservation and survival for God's people.

He goes on to mention

(Matthew 24:29) 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

and asks, What will the sign consist of? We do not know, it hasn't happened yet.

He cites

(Luke 21:25-28) 25 "Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near."

and asks, True or False? This verse applies today? His answer, False, because this happens after the destruction of false religion, and applies to the middle part of the GT.

He then goes on to say that after BtG is destroyed the political elements turn on God's people. He mentions Daniel (sorry didn't get a reference) and brings up the King of the North. Who is it today? We do not know, but up until 1991 it was the communist bloc. When the KoN attacks God's people that will be the latest that we figure that one out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

He mentions Gog=Satan and cites Eze. 38:?? (sorry, I missed some verses because of noise in the room) and says the KoN and Gog possibly attack at the same time shortly before the end of the GT. Christ's final coming is very close.

What about all the people who haven't heard the good news yet? China and India have over 1 billion people each. India has like 1,600 languages, Mexico 62, Nigeria 200+ (hard to hear this figure). So basically he's saying it's impossible for us to have literature in every single tongue spoken on earth, and then reminds us that the good news will be preached to all the NATIONS, not to each and every individual. And of course, he cites

(Matthew 10:23) 23 When they persecute YOU in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to YOU, YOU will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.

He asks if this scripture applied only to the 1st century, and points out it must have a fulfillment in our day because of where it says "until the Son of man arrives."

He goes on to say that it appears the GT could be very close. And says, Think of the 8th king, the UN, how much longer wil Jehovah continue to let them exist? We don't know.

Moving on to more future stuff he cites Eze. 39:?? (maybe I was getting tired?) and talks about the 7 years of clean up we have to look forward to. Then makes the statement that if you do not want to work hard, then the new system is not for you. How encouraging! Personally, I'm trying with every bit of my strength just to hold on, and not give up. Thinking about how much hard work I have lined up waiting for me in the new system is not going to help me now. If it weren't for Jehovah, I would have thrown in the towel by now. So, continue to look to Jehovah and Jesus for the support you need to make it through the rest of this system of things.

He goes on to speculate that perhaps 40 billion people will be resurrected after the clean up work is finished. He indicates this would take place by resurrecting one generation at a time, going backwards in time, but also states certain ones (such as prophets, or King David) would perhaps have an early resurrection so they can be on hand for overseeing all the activities. He makes the point that only one generation at a time must be resurrected in order to avoid communication problems. Then he tries to cheer up the audience by reminding us that we have two parents, and they had two parents, and they had two parents, etc., etc. so we are looking forward to greeting our two parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents, and won't it be such a joy to meet all these people?

He mentions that on average 3,000 new KH's are being built each year and that this quick build experience should come in handy in the new system when those 40 billion people need a place to live.

He said, This is not a time to pursue a career or higher education. If people were to observe you, and the decisions you make, will they get the sense that you believe the end is near?

Then he asks, is Bible reading for adults only? What about children and teenagers? And he tells a story of a 13 yr. old boy who reads the Bible every day, and how it has helped him have a close relationship with Jehovah.

Then he recaps the 6 comings:

1) 1914 started ruling as king, ousted Satan
2) 1917-1919 came to cleanse the congregation, refine his people
3) 1918? 1st resurrection
4) 1914 present in his royal presence thru to the end
5) After BtG is destroyed sign of son of man
6) Armageddon, final judgement, Matt. 25:31 separation of sheep and goats

End of talk
***********************************************

So, keep on sifting, digging, and making sure that what you are taking in is from Jehovah and his son, Jesus Christ. Be on the lookout for garbage from the weeds!

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) . . .Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.

lawrence

yada- thanks for the wonderful write-up. These men refuse to humbe themselves...what a group of false prophets! This is great-

"He goes on to say that it appears the GT could be very close. And says, Think of the 8th king, the UN, how much longer wil Jehovah continue to let them exist? We don't know. "

No shit - they don't know. They know nothing! "Slow to speak," is obviously not in their translation of James.

nvrgnbk

Thanks yaddayadda!

This is a parody, right?

This isn't real, right?

It's a joke, no?

Blueblades

If it was posted on E- Watchman's give us the link to it. Nothing Special about this talk. Its the same old same old just being repeated by a different speaker at a different time. Nothing new here! He summarizes six points, yet admits, we don't know.

Blueblades

garybuss

Proclaimers chap. 10 p. 137 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth

As the events following 1914 began to unfold and the Bible Students compared these with what the Master had foretold, they gradually came to appreciate that they were living in the last days of the old system and that they had been since 1914. They also came to understand that it was in the year 1914 that Christ's invisible presence had begun and that this was, not by his personally returning (even invisibly) to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King.

If it was posted on E- Watchman's give us the link to it.

E-Watchman Link :

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451

Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously)

metatron

This illustrates what I've been saying for some time. They don't have to change doctrines because

facts and logic have been discarded and Witlesses are too stupid to care. There is no one to rebel

no matter how dumb this all gets. 6 comings? Why stop there? Why not 12 or 33 or 188?

To them, the Bible has no objective meaning and can be used to justify whatever they wish.

metatron

RunningMan

I think the most telling thing about this post is that we are unable to determine if it is real or if it is a joke - their best theology is indistinguishable from parody.

GB member Gerrit Losch - Special Talk - the 6 comings of Christ (LONG)

yaddayadda

lawrence

nvrgnbk

Blueblades

garybuss

nvrgnbk

Marcel

Alligator Wisdom

metatron

RunningMan

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