For those who don't know I've been 'inactive' for around one year. I stopped attending meetings late last year. All during this time I was working on my wife (known on this board as Amber Rose), helping her see the problems with the Watchtower. She finally realized the real truth of it all and hasn't gone back since the beginning of the year. There are some family of hers still in the organization we talk with, but in regards to the Kingdom Hall it's all 'don't ask don't tell'. Give or take a few instances this is how it has been this year.
Well, the Elders have made a few attempts to 'win us back' but for the most part we have simply ignored them. They stayed away for quite a while but a number of weeks ago they came back looking to find out "what horrible things we have done" (no joke, one of them said this) that had been keeping us away from 'serving Jehovah'.
I wanted to just ignore them but they kept pushing me to give them a reason as to why I refused to come back. Eventually I gave in and started talking about 607 BCE. I quickly backed them into a corner and told me to answer a basic question about the passage in Jerimiah, they looked at me with blank faces. I said they could answer the question the next time they came back. They didn't want me to have the last word so they kept pushing multiple issues. But I didn't back down and I kept going back to the same thing. Eventually the one Elder realized he would not be able to change my mind and told me to write to the society. The other Elder though was really interested in what I had to say, and agreed that he would take a look at it if I gave it to him. I personally knew that he was being very honest and I thought about this heavily for the following days.
I eventually decided I was going to invite this Elder over alone and show him the information one on one. He asked if he could bring somebody else but I told him I rather he would just come. He agreed.
I made an outline of every single point needed to show the WT interpretation was faulty. He already had admitted on the first visit that if this teaching was wrong everything would start to fall like dominoes, so I wanted to really be prepared. We talked for about an hour and a half on the chronology. He fought me a little on some of the points, but realized that it was all on shaky ground. Verse by verse through the Bible we talked about the 'seventy years'. I believe the crushing blow was when I opened up the Isaiah book and he saw for himself that the interpretation he was reluctant to accept over the past hour and a half had already been published by the Watchtower! It was quite a discussion. I didn't even have to finish talking about every single point, he realized that what I was showing was what the Bible itself pointed to. He agreed that he needed to do a little research, but from what he could tell the WTS was wrong on this interpretation.
But then the conversation took a turn for what appeared to be the worst. He started to throw stupid questions back on me about 'where I stood' making it appear that what he had just seen didn't effect him. He started to tear down other religions and build up what he saw as 'the good' in the organization, and that they still where more right than others. I knew I had a choice at this point. Do I really start to talk about many other things I see wrong, or do I fumble through his questions?
I decided to stand firm. Many of his arguments I had already thought of (since all JWs use them) and had rebuttal's. The amazing thing was that usually a JW will ignore what you say when you make a come back to one of their points. But this Elder actually started to listen!
I went over many different points. And while there was a few tense moments, he began to agree with much of what I said. I talked about the 144,000 not being a literal number, about how the organization was putting itself in too important of a position, how disfellowshipping hurts people, how I allways used to think that they where making up many of the prophecy interpretations, ect. The more I revealed about how I felt, the more he agreed!
And that is what happened the next hour and a half. For the first time I had a conversation with a JW that I could see was actually effecting them. I will also say (and this is very important) that it wasn't about me changing his mind. We each do that on our own. I could tell that this man had changed his mind about the WTS long ago (or possibly was simply never fully convinced). I know this because I have shown the same exact information to another Elder before and got a totally different reaction. Each person is different, and we can't forget that. I also have to say that I had a hunch all along that this is how the conversation would go, based on what I knew about this person. I was still taking chance, but I decided to risk it. Boy was I glad I did!
So basically when he left he was 'on our side' in a sense. He was trying to help us find a way to 'fade away' without trouble. I could see he was really bothered by what the organization does to people who disagree with their teachings but not the Bible. I said he could call and come back to our hose anytime and that he was allways welcome. We said goodnight and he went out to his car to begin what I'm sure was a long drive home.
It was quite an evening. I don't know quite where this leaves us, but in the end I feel a little better. I realize that our journey through the WTS isn't over yet and there is still more to come. You just never know what can happen.
-Drew
Discussion with Elder....a must read story
by drew sagan 34 Replies latest jw friends
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drew sagan
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jambon1
Well done Drew. You must have put a lot of thought into it. Every time I speak with JW`s (mainly my active wife), I get the same stock answers. No penetration at all. It is pointless at the moment. Well done to you on dealing with this lost sheep.
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minimus
Not to burst your bubble but here's my prediction. He's going to think about how the good outweighs the bad and he'll tll the iother elders all the things you said bad about the Organization and The Truth. Even though he agrees with many of your thoughts, LOYALTY to Jehovah (the Organization) is what it's all about. Expect a judicial committee invitation.
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nvrgnbk
This is really an amazing story drew sagan. Thanks for sharing it with us.
We must never give up hope.
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reneeisorym
Not to burst your bubble but here's my prediction. He's going to think about how the good outweighs the bad and he'll tll the iother elders all the things you said bad about the Organization and The Truth. Even though he agrees with many of your thoughts, LOYALTY to Jehovah (the Organization) is what it's all about. Expect a judicial committee invitation.
I agree. I bet you will get a judicial committee invitation soon as well.
But on the positive side, you may really have shook up this guy. Even if he goes back to the JW mindset soon, it really shows that this guy is interested in knowing the truth and has a mind he uses to actually think and not just memorize JW replies. Even if immediately you end up with it backfiring, in time he may come to your door and thank you.
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Blueblades
Drew, the fact that he took the time to listen for so long makes me think that he had these same questions in the back of his mind and was not able to discuss his doubts with anyone except you and made him realize that he is not alone with his doubts. I don't think that there will be any Judicial follow - up. He'll quietly research this information to shake his doubts or support them before he goes any further with his visit with you.
I feel that you gave him much to think about and more to come. The dominoe effect is what scares most witnesses from proceeding any further. When 607 BCE. falls, all the rest collapses. Many stick their head in the sand so to speak. Many others examine more and free themselves from being captive to The Watchtower. Hopefully this Elder will be one who does not stick his head in the sand.
Blueblades
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neverendingjourney
I enjoyed your story, but I'm with minimus on this one. Of course, I don't know the elder personally, so I can't give an opinion based on anything other than what you have written. But, JW's are very, very good about quickly throwing their doubts in the garbage can because the "sin" of apostasy is the most vilified of all sins a JW could commit. This man has likely invested many, many years of his life to get to that position in the organizations and probably doesn't want to throw that away because you made some interesting points about dates. He will discuss the points you made with the other elders and they will probably say that these are all points that apostates have made before and the Society has already addressed and debunked them. The apostates don't have Jehovah's spirit because, look at them, they're all scattered around with no organization. Jehovah's organization, on the other hand, shows the blessing of the holy spirit by the incredible growth that's taking place.....blah, blah, blah. You know the rest of the story.
This man won't leave the org. until he's personally ready to. Unless he's already at that point, expect a judicial committee for apostasy. Who knows, maybe he will get tired of the org. at some point in the future and give what you said some further analysis. But there are a lot of justifications for him to put what he heard from you in a part of his brain that he doesn't access with any regularity. Where else would I go? Wait on Jehovah. David was loyal to Saul even though he had become evil, etc. Thanks for sharing.
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blondie
People tend to leave on a one-two punch, #1 doctrinal doubts or questions, #2 extremely unloving treament and/or lying by people you thought you could trust. Sometimes people have to get this punch a few times before they stay down and out.
Blondie
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OnTheWayOut
Minimus may or may not be right about an upcoming judicial committee.
My opinion is that it will happen.Regardless, you stayed true to yourself, and were willing to come to the aid of your
fellowman at the risk of great personal loss. He will always be effected by what you
discussed with him.I say GOOD JOB.
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drew sagan
Not to burst your bubble but here's my prediction. He's going to think about how the good outweighs the bad and he'll tll the other elders all the things you said bad about the Organization and The Truth. Even though he agrees with many of your thoughts, LOYALTY to Jehovah (the Organization) is what it's all about. Expect a judicial committee invitation.
I don't want to give to much out at this point about all the details, but this very point is something he actually told me he disagrees with. I could really tell that loyalty to to organization bothered him alot. He said much more deeper things, but I'm not going to get into it all at this point.