607 to 1914 calculation question

by bluebell 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    The history of the development of the 1914 doctrine needs to be kept in mind when contemplating things like a "360 day prophetic year".

    During the 19th century there were literally hundreds of commentators setting forth all manner of prophetic speculations. These speculations mainly focused on when Jesus would return. The dates that William Miller set, 1843 and 1844, are good examples of this sort of speculation. Miller's followers, of course, split and evolved into various Adventist sects such as the Seventh Day Adventists and the less well known groups that C. T. Russell eventually got his date system from.

    During this time, all manner of nonsensical calculations were done in an attempt to pinpoint the date of Jesus' return. Bits and pieces from various parts of the Bible were cobbled together to arrive at "prophetic time periods" and applied to various starting dates to see what ending date would come up. One of these speculations cobbled together bits from Daniel, Revelation and other places (7 times; time + times + 1/2 a time = 3 1/2 times = 1,260 days; 2 x 1,260 = 2,520; "a day for a year"; 2,520 divided by 7 times = 360 years/days per "time") to arrive at the speculative notion of this "360 day prophetic year". So the notion was pure invention based on nothing but speculation.

    In view of this, it's not clear to me that it's useful to try to figure out what sort of calendar might have been used to arrive at a "360 day prophetic year". This nonsense is remembered today only because, by the luck of the draw, Adventist sects and Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses still exist and still promote the nonsense. Had they disappeared, like so many other groups did, these silly speculations would only be remembered in dusty 19th century books like Elliott's Horae Apocalypticae.

    A related thing might be Pyramidology. Beginning in 1859, various Christian speculators wrote all manner of nonsense about how the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was intimately related to Bible history and prophecy. One commentator, Joseph Seiss, whose books influenced C. T. Russell a great deal, wrote a book in 1877 called Miracle in Stone in which he called the Great Pyramid "God's Stone Witness" ( cf. http://www.greatdreams.com/pyramid.htm ). The Bible Students parrotted this for another 50 years. In order to make their prophetic speculations come out 'correct', these guys invented what they called the "pyramid inch" which was 0.999 of a standard inch. They also invented all sorts of correspondences between measurements of various dimensions of the Great Pyramid and what they called prophecies in the Bible.

    The so-called "Bible Code", which is popular today among a fairly large group of nutcases, is another case in point where pre-determined patterns are extracted from great masses of data. One can as easily extract prophecies from Moby Dick as from the Old Testament by this method.

    The point here is that, just because one can find patterns in great masses of data, it doesn't mean the patterns are real. The "360 day prophetic year" is a good example.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Narkissos wrote:

    : Enoch's lifespan of 365 (not 364) years in Genesis may be an indirect indication that the actual length of a solar year was known.

    Well, the Egyptians certainly knew that the year was very close to 365 days. Actually it's much closer to 365 1/4 days, but the Egyptian calendar did not take that into account.

    The discrepancy of 1/4 day brings up some interesting historical problems for believers in a literal "Bible chronology", such as the JWs and young-earth fundamentalists. Because the Egyptian year is actually 1/4 day short of the actual year, the Egyptian calendar sort of rotates through the year over a 1,460 year period. If in one year January 1 comes in winter, then 730 years later it would come in summer. Combining all solidly known Egyptian historical information shows that the Egyptian calendar was first used in about 4,800 B.C.E., which in turn indicates that Egyptian civilization began much earlier, because many hundreds of years of observation and record keeping would be needed to determine that a year was about 365 days long. This is completely at odds with a literal "Bible chronology".

    James Henry Breasted, in his books A History of Egypt (1905) and Ancient Records of Egypt (1906) provides full detail on the historical information showing the antiquity of the Egyptian calendar.

    AlanF

  • startingover
    startingover

    Thanks everyone for that info.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    No one at that time then would have said "o yes, there are only 360 days in a year" because the 4 extra days were always counted even if not on the calendar?

    Let me quote 1 Enoch on this matter: "The sun comes in through a door and rises for thirty days together with the captains of a thousand of the orders of the stars, together with the four which are added to determine the intervals between the four parts of the year ... Truly, they are recorded forever: one in the first gate, one in the third, one in the fourth, and one in the sixth. The year is completed in three hundred and sixty-four days... The four captains which distinguish the four seasons of the year enter first; after them enter the twelve captains of the orders which distinguish the months; and three hundred and sixty captains which divide the days, and finally enter the four epagomenal days, the captains which divide between the four seasons of the year" (82:4-11).

    So the year is construed here as divided first into four seasons, and then within those four seasons are placed twelve months, and then 360 days are placed within those twelve months. Finally, in between the seasons are placed the four epagomenal days in order to divide the seasons of the year. This completes the year in 364 days.

    There were certainly some who counted the epagomenal days as additional times instead of days and there is a polemic against this in the text, at least in the latest redaction of 1 Enoch (82:5). But this seems to be a technicality about how to regard the solstices and equinoxes in the reckoning of the year, which Jubilees and the Qumran Essenes resolved by including the days within the months.

    Narkissos....One may also note that P's postdiluvian genealogy in Genesis 11:10-26, 12:4 between the birth of Arpachshad and Abram's departure from Haran also yields 365 years (35 + 30 + 34 + 30 + 32 + 30 + 29 + 70 + 75).

    The question of intercalation is a thorny one since the available sources are vague on this. Adding a week every 7 years is most attractive because this accords with the keeping of sabbatical years. The OT gives a rationale for this system of intercalation: the seven days of the Festival of Booths (Leviticus 23:34) could be doubled every sabbatical year (i.e. without counting the extra days as days of the month, but as a prolonged sabbath) and Deuteronomy 31:10 in fact indicates that the Festival of Booths had a special observance during each sabbatical year. Then after 49 years a jubilee would be declared on the Day of Atonement (VII/10), which falls on a Friday in the sabbatical system (Leviticus 25:8-10), so a second weeklong sabbath could be inserted there in addition to the one in the the Festival of Booths. Of course, there is no direct evidence such a system was ever followed in the postexilic period. VanderKam is of the opinion instead that 5 weeks were intercalated somewhere within every period of 28 years, but this is difficult to reconcile with the length of the months. It is possible that the calendar was unintercalated when it first came into existence and different systems of intercalation were subsequently developed. And it is possible that sectarian Enochic and Qumran groups rejected any system of intercalation which could have otherwise been used. This would explain the emphasis in 1 Enoch on the sin of the angels who fail to observe the times of the seasons and how the seasons were expected to be late in the last days (ch. 80). There was also a three-year synchronism at Qumran between the lunar and solar calendars (which added a 30-day month to the lunar cycle after 36 lunar months) which would seem to preclude a system of intercalation for the solar months.

    AlanF....Of course the 2,520 years is cobbled together by mixing together bits of Revelation with the "seven times" of Daniel, ch. 4 which have absolutely doing to do with each other, but the notion of a 360-day year is already implicit in Revelation 11:2-3 which equates 42 months with 1,260 days, i.e. 12 months of 360 days. So a period of "360 days" is not the "pure invention" of later exegetes. And such a period is well-known from the literature of the period, cf. the "three hundred and sixty captains" of 1 Enoch 82. What I am trying to point out is that the biblical texts that were later appropriated by Adventist and post-Adventist groups utilize a rather well-attested calendrical system from the period -- the "360-day prophetic year" is a pale reflection of the real "364-day year" that was used in biblical times.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Thanks for the correction, Leolaia!

    AlanF

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here is another interesting theory about intercalation at Qumran:

    http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/qumran.html

    On the other hand, there is another text at Qumran (4Q319) which lists the conjunctions between the solar and lunar months in a repeating cycle of six jubilees (= 294 years), where the schedule of conjunctions begins anew. Not only does this indicate that no system of intercalation was used, but it also suggests that the Qumranites knew the true length of the year -- for the 364-day calendar does indeed synchronize with the actual year after 294 years (i.e. 294 x 364 = 107,016 days, 293 x 365.2423 = 107,016 days). If they indeed did not intercalate their calendar, perhaps they were encouraged to refrain from doing so by this coincidence between religious time units (i.e. a period of six jubilees) and the actual astronomical length of the year. Of course, that meant a wandering calendar (impractical for agricultural purposes) and the loss of a year over almost three centuries. The concern in the Book of Luminaries for the equal length of day and night in the spring equinox and the location of the sun in the sky (1 Enoch 71:12-13) however would suggest that some system of intercalation was used earlier on, to keep the equinoxes at the right times.

  • bluebell
    bluebell

    lol wow im still as confused as ever - thanks everyone for trying to explain, i suppose the only way to understand it is to research it myself.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Bluebell,

    I saw your question as being about nations in general, rather than being limited to the Jewish nation.

    One book that might help you is "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" by Jack Finegan, especially pages 29 to 44. If you can't find a copy, write to me.

    Doug
    ------------

    1. I wonder how the loss of days brought about by the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar affects the WTS's date in 1914? Can anyone tell me the date of Tishri 1 in 1914, according to the Jewish calendar?

    2. Another question for me is the use of day=year with "seven times" of Daniel 4, but not with "three and a half times" of Revelation.

    3. It is my understanding that the WTS sees the dream of Daniel 4 fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar, and that it is the fulfillment on the king that is the actual prophecy of the "gentile times". Am I wrong?

    4. Interestingly, when the WTS changed the date of the Fall from 538 BCE to 539 BCE and the corresponding move of the Destruction of Jerusalem from 606 BCE to 607 BCE, they were so besotted with 1914 that they invented the story that CTR was not aware that there was no "zero year". It is my understanding that Russell was aware of that fact, and while he was prepared to move his expectations from 1914 to 1915, he adamantly held to his 606 BCE date for Jerusalem's destruction.

  • jeanV
    jeanV
    It is my understanding that Russell was aware of that fact, and while he was prepared to move his expectations from 1914 to 1915, he adamantly held to his 606 BCE date for Jerusalem's destruction.

    It would be great to have some material on this point.

    I also recommend Finegan handbook of biblical chronology. It is available at amazon.com

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    bluebell....The summarize, the Jews in the Second Temple period used two different calendars for different purposes. There was the old lunar calendar which was based on the observation of the new moon, in which the average length of the month was 29.5 days, and which had 354 days in a year. This is the basis of the modern Jewish calendar. There was also a solar calendar based on the observation of the sun at the spring equinox and the length of day and night, which was seems to be presumed in some parts of the OT and in 1 Enoch, Jubilees, and the Essene texts at Qumran. This calendar had a total of 364 days in the year, arranged in four seasons, with twelve 30-day months in the seasons, and the four extra days (two solstices and two equinoxes) interspersed as non-monthly days that herald the seasons. Thus each season had 91 days and 13 weeks, and the year had 52 weeks as a whole -- allowing the religious festivals and sabbaths to fall on the same day of the week every year. It had a harmonious structure that made it attractive for religious purposes. Many scholars speculate that the calendar was based on the Egyptian solar calendar, which similarly had twelve 30-day months in a year. But the Egyptian calendar did not recognize the solstices and equinoxes as special days; it simply had a series of twelve months and then 5 extra days were tacked on at the end of the year. These intercalary days were non-monthly days. If the Jews borrowed this calendar, they simply rearranged 4 of those 5 days throughout the year in order to impose a sabbatical structure to the year. By adding a day to each season, there would be an even 13 weeks (with no remainder) for each season. And if the 5th day were eliminated, then a 364-day calendar would also be evenly divisible by 7. But by making the calendar 1 day short of the Egyptian 365-day calendar and (roughly) 1.25 days short of the actual length of the year, the Jews would have to have some device to keep the calendar on track unless they allowed it to wander throughout the seasons. That is what all this discussion of intercalation (i.e. the addition of leap days) is about. There is some evidence from Qumran (where the Dead Sea Scrolls were written) that no intercalation was used at all and that they used a 294-year cycle (which coincidentally matches the length of six jubilees) in which the months wander throughout the seasons. In this case, the calendar ceased to be a true solar calendar and became a schematic calendar without regard to astronomical time. But if the calendar was ever used to celebrate the actual agricultural festivals (which the author of Jubilees was especially concerned with), then some form of intercalation had to have been used. The older form of the calendar in 1 Enoch, with its attention paid to the timing of the spring equinox, also seems to have been a true solar calendar. But unfortunately no direct evidence of the system of intercalation has survived. But the sabbatical structure of the calendar (i.e. that the year had only 364 days that allowed the sabbaths to occur on the same calendar date every year) imposed certain constraints how intercalation could have proceeded. You couldn't just add the extra day to every year as this would destroy the sabbatical rhythm of the calendar. So most likely a week was added every 7 years (either before the spring equinox, as the lunar calendar did with its intercalations, or in the Festival of Booths), which would bring the calendar back in line. Since the Jews already treated sabbatical years as special, this is somewhat plausible. And if another week was added every jubilee year, then this would help take care of the 0.25 remainder (which we accommodate in the Gregorian calendar with a leap year every 4 years) at least in part. But there is no direct evidence of the system of intercalation, tho there are some interesting clues in later literature.

    What relevance does all this have to "seven times" of Daniel 4? None whatsoever. But the time periods mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3 and Daniel 12:11-12 (cf. 6:7-12, where the length of the month is 30 days) do reflect this calendar which arranges 360 days in 12 months, as does Genesis 7:11, 24, 8:3-4 and some other places in the OT, and the Society uses THESE texts to expand the "seven times" into a period of 2,520 days. My point is that both the Egyptian and the Jewish versions of the calendar reckoned the year as containing more days than those merely contained in the months. In other words, a span of seven years contains more days than 2,520 days. Second, I want to point out that there is NO SUCH THING as a 360-day "prophetic calendar" and neither is this a lunar year. This is only an incomplete understading of a real calendar used by the Jews during the period, and this calendar assumed that the year contained more days than the 360 days belonging to the months.

    1. I wonder how the loss of days brought about by the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar affects the WTS's date in 1914? Can anyone tell me the date of Tishri 1 in 1914, according to the Jewish calendar?

    First of all, nothing coincided with October 1914 anyway so a difference of a few days would probably not matter to anyone who cares. Second, the loss of days is only to bring the calendar back into alignment with the seasons since the Julian calendar was devised in 46 BC. Since the Society is reckoning the "seven times" from a point many centuries prior to this, I don't see any relevance with the seasonal drift of the Julian calendar. No days were literally lost.

    2. Another question for me is the use of day=year with "seven times" of Daniel 4, but not with "three and a half times" of Revelation.

    The Society is being wholly inconsistent here. No Bible scholar (other than those of an Adventist background, I suppose) would regard a "day = year" principle as relevant to the time periods in Daniel 7 and Revelation 11. The former pertains to expected length of the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes in 168-165 BC and the latter imitates the former time period.

    3. It is my understanding that the WTS sees the dream of Daniel 4 fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar, and that it is the fulfillment on the king that is the actual prophecy of the "gentile times". Am I wrong?

    It doesn't make any sense. The text only talks about the period of Nebuchadnezzar's incapacitation, and that's it. But the Society makes a situation that befalls a Gentile king symbolic of what befalls the non-Gentile Jewish kingdom, such that a period of Gentile kingly domination is symbolized by Gentile kingly incapacitation, and not only that, but the very Gentile king who brought an end to the God's kingdom on earth (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar) is the same one that symbolizes the kingdom that is brought to an end by Nebuchadnezzar. It's ludicrous.

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