After the recent thread about keeping control of the question when talking to dubs, I decided to try something. I'm gonna type up the sudgested presentations for this months magazines and books, then I'm going to give my reccomendations on what to say.
This month it's the Awake on Money which there are two presentations for, the Watchtower on Evil, and another Watchtower about Morals. Then the books are the Family happiness book, and the Is there a Creator Who Cares book.
Right now I'll only do the June 1st Watchtower, the first Awake presentation, and the Creator book. Halfway through the month, I may do the other Awake presentation, the June 15th Watchtower and the Family book. If anyone is interested, and if I have time. I might make this a monthly thing.
This is just what I personally would say. Or would like to say. I've never acctually had to talk to a witness at the door, but after 18 years of being one, I've got some ideas.
I'm basing the probable JW responses on what I personaly would have said if I were the JW. (So basically I'll be arguing with myself a lot during all this...)
Watchtower. June 1:
"Almost every day we hear news of those who carry out evil acts. [Cite a current example known locally.] Have you ever wondered if there is an unseen sinister source influencing people? [Allow for response. Then read Revelation 12:12.] This magazine explains how we can protect ourselves."
Revelation 12:12 |
12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."
They are trying to apeal to the Bible as an authority. They figure that if they can quote the Bible nobody will dare argue with them. If you accept the Bible as the word of god, then I recomend you stop them before they get this far. I don't so that's not a problem for me.
Here's what I would try:
JW: "Almost every day we hear news of those who carry out evil acts. [Cite a current example known locally.] Have you ever wondered if there is an unseen sinister source influencing people?"
Me: "No. Do humans really NEED an unseen force to be evil?"
(The JW now has two basic options... that I see anyways.)
Option 1:
JW Will probably go ahead and read Revelation anyway. Then ask if you agree with it.Me: "What if Satan stopped interfering with humans? Would they all stop doing evil things? Weren't people being evil LONG before Satan was cast down?"
The JW will probably claim that things have been getting worse since then, and say that we are living in the last days... he may or may not read 2 Timothy 3. (It doesn't matter.)
But you see what I've done? I have switched the conversation from whether or not Satan is causing the evil, to whether or not things are acctually getting worse since he was cast down... since 1914 that is, now we are touching one of their key doctrines. In option 2 I'll try to do the same thing, so the rest of the conversation can be found below.
Option 2:
JW will apeal to your emotions, and ask if you would ever consider doing anything like this unless influenced by... something... Obviously you would not, but don't just say "NO" like he wants.Me: "I have no reason to, I'm sane. But don't you think that most of these [school shootings, terrorist attacks, rapes, etc.] are caused more by mental disorders than demons?"
JW: (I'm not really sure what a witness would say to that. But I'd assume that, unless they ask to come back later, the first thing they would do is point out that it's getting WORSE, and that must mean... something...)
Now we are back to the main issue that we got to in Options 1 and 2.
It all hinges on whether or not the world is indeed getting worse since 1914.Me: "What makes you think the world is getting worse? [Don't allow for response yet.] Thousands of years ago people regularly sacrificed their children to gods, they turtured animals on a daily basis. They would send men/fathers/husbands into arenas to fight to the death with animals... or other fathers/husbands. Slavery was widely accepted. People regularly died from simple diseases that we could cure with a single injection. We have humane societies that protect the rights of animals. What makes you think the world is getting worse? [Okay, now they can respond. But feel free to add anything you want to the list.]"
JW, probably can't site any good reason to think the world as a whole is worse now... I certainly couldn't, so he'll probably refference a SINGLE EVENT, like 911 or Virgina Tech.
Me: "That's an isolated event. 1000 years ago, if something like that happened and hundreds of people died, only the people in the general area would hear about it. I don't think there are more mass murders, I think they are just documented better. What news station wants to report on charities all day? Isn't it possible that you're just more pessimistic?" (You could also point out that after 911 we are still talking about it 6 years later! After 6 years nothing worse has happened, if the world is really getting worse as they say, wouldn't they have something more recent to talk about?)
It's getting harder and harder for me to think of a JW response to this. By now they will probably say they have to go, say it's all answered in the magazine and ask you to read it, or something...
If they ask you to read the magazine and it's all answered in there: Don't, they haven't answered a SINGLE question for you, what reason would you have to think they magazine he's pushing would do any better? If he asks to come back later... feel free to say yes if you have the time, that could be fun. Maybe another witness would think of something else, but I think that pretty much finishes the discussion.
AWAKE # 1
"I would like to have your opinion on what this says.[Read 1 Timothy 6:10.] Do you feel that those who live for money and material acquisitions really suffer as a result? [Allow for response.] This magazine explains the bad effects of pursuing riches."
1 Timothy 6:10: |
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains.As always they apeal to the Bible as an authority. The Bible is pretty direct about this... so if you believe the Bible you may as well just say: "Yeah, if you make money the most important thing in life, you'll probably be unhappy." No reason to disagree on a subject you agree on right? But that doesn't meen you have to take the magazine... since you are already aware that moderation is needed, why do you need some magazine to prove that?
But I wouldn't be happy with just turning down the magazines.
I'd have to point out that most people who are wealthy, are acctually happier because of it... Like Bill gates. He knows how to use his extreme wealth properly. That scripture and this magazine really only apply to people who make money the most important thing in life AND who are really stupid about how they use it.
I'd point out that I'm not a retard who is incapable of moderation.
Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?
There are two reccomended presentations for the creator book.
The first one assumes that you ALREADY believe in god... kind of retarded.
"Where can we find the best advice on how to solve out most perplexing problems?[Allow for response. Then read Matthew 7:28, 29.] That describes how people responded to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Note what other have said. [Feature commentson page 152.] This chapter dicusses the life and teachings of Jesus."
Matthew 7:28, 29 |
28 Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; 29 for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.Comments on page 152:
ctchap.9p.152AGreatTeacherShowsUstheCreatorMoreClearly******
The
GreatestSermonEverHindu leader Mohandas Gandhi is quoted as saying that by following its teachings, "we shall have solved the problems . . . of the whole world." Noted anthropologist Ashley Montagu wrote that the modern findings about the psychological importance of love are only "a validation" of this sermon.
These men were referring to Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. Gandhi also said that "the teaching of the Sermon was meant for each and every one of us." Professor Hans Dieter Betz recently noted: "The influences exerted by the Sermon on the Mount generally far transcend the borderlines of Judaism and Christianity, or even Western culture." He added that this sermon has "a peculiarly universalistic appeal."
Why not read this relatively short but fascinating discourse? You will find it in Matthew chapters 5 to 7 and at Luke 6:20-49. Here are some highlights that we can reap from this greatest sermon:
How
tobehappy—Matthew5:3-12;Luke6:20-23.How
tomaintainself-respect—Matthew5:14-16,37;6:2-4,16-18;Luke6:43-45.How
toimproverelationswithothers—Matthew5:22-26,38-48;7:1-5,12;Luke6:27-38,41,42.How
tolessenmaritalproblems—Matthew5:27-32.How
tocopewithanxiety—Matthew6:25-34.How
torecognizereligiousfraud—Matthew6:5-8,16-18;7:15-23.How
tofindthemeaningoflife—Matthew6:9-13,19-24,33;7:7-11,13,14,24-27;Luke6:46-49.JW: "Where can we find the best advice on how to solve out most perplexing problems?"
Me: "The internet."
JW reads the scripture, then reads the comments on page 152:
I would be perfectly honest. I find the Sermon on the mount to be completely useless. Jesus' advice for 'your most perplexing problems' ... "do nothing"... that's right, be like a lily who is clothed by god, or like a bird who is fed by god... (Am I the only one who noticed that flowers are NAKED and birds eat bugs... plus they spend all their time actively hunting bugs... no thanks, I'd rather not lay in a feild naked eating bugs. Yeah, there's some practical advice. )
For a verse by verse analysis of the sermon on the mount check this out: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_Mount
JW will probably realise I'm an atheist and switch to the second presentation:
"Have you ever wondered: 'If there is a God, will he ever act to remove suffering and injustive in the world?' [Allow for response. Then read Revelation 21: 3, 4.] This book explains what God will do to eliminate suffering and remove its source. [Show chapter 10.]"
Revelation 21: 3, 4 |.
3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."Once again, they are placing a book that is supposed to prove that god exists, but they assume that the householder already believes in god...
JW: Have you ever wondered: 'If there is a God, will he ever act to remove suffering and injustice in the world?'
You have several fun option here. You could use you're exwitness knowlege and start a big discussion about the joke that is Universal Soverenty, that's what I would do. Or you could say: "I used to, but now I don't believe in god, and therefore the question answers itself.."
Me: "You're Jehovahs Witnesses right?"
JW: "blah blah blah... yes."
Me: "You think that god is allowing suffering just to prove a point don't you?"
JW: "He had to answer Satans challenge."
Me: "What was Satans Challenge?"
JW: "He challenged gods ability to rule."
Me: "Can god rule us succesfully?"
JW: "Huh?" Or "Yes of course!"
Me: "I don't think he can! In Eden, the only two people who ever lived directly under gods rulership rejected him. One third of the angels would rather DIE than continue under his rule. His Israelites continually claimed that they were better off being slaves than serving god. He was so bad at leading them, that he eventually had to choose a HUMAN king to take care of things. He makes retarded punishments, like killing seventy some thousand israelites for the so called 'sin' of one man. And he has to perform some ransom magic show in order to forgive people for a sin they didn't even commit... Can you think of ONE time that god succeeded in ruling a group?." (Feel free to mention the fact that humans were succeeding in the tower of Babel, so god had to change the rules to make them fail. He has sabatoged the human race so many times that this challenge is a sham.)
JW: "APOSTATE!!!! JEHOVAH!!!!". I was never confronted with Jehovahs inability to do anything right WHILE I was a witness. So I don't know what a JW would say. They'd probably run away screaming 'apostate'.
Well that's that. Any feedback? Should I keep doing this every month? Should I shut up? Is this pointless? Is it entertaining? What should I change? Should I cut back on the atheist stuff? Should I include a tazer in my next conversation? Should I stop typing and make myself an omelette.
Lore