I've read most of this thread and one glaring point is sticking out to me:
The JC is NOT to find if the person is guilty - that is determined beforehand by the Investigative Committee.
The JC is only to find out if the the person is repentant and IF NOT to attempt to bring them to repentance.
Update on my JC situation
by drew sagan 62 Replies latest jw friends
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UnConfused
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Quandry
1) the accused is under an illusion that the elders are ‘there for them’ and would never dream of acting hastily or, God forbid, dishonestly, 2) the accused is intimidated by a previous and constant bombardment to ‘submit or die at Armageddon,’ 3) the accused is inexperienced with the often ridiculous misconstrual made by wacko elders, 4) the accused has no idea that copious records will be kept of the hearing (by elders) without challenge if not for their own detailed notes.
Unfortunately, I think that when three or four or sometimes even five men gang up on one person, with the intention of catching them off guard, and accusing them sometimes of things they didn't even do, you have the definite possibility of being disfellowshipped no matter what you say or do.
I would do one thing--take your time. Repeat each question that they ask you. Then think about the answer. Do not be hasty. Ask them questions to make sure that you understand.
For example "Are you asking me if I purposely joined the YMCA to become apostate? Is that what you feel that I did? Where is your proof? Did someone accuse me of doing this? Do you think it is possible for someone to innocently want to make use of the facilities at the YMCA? How about when the WTS used the pool to baptize at a convention? How do you feel about that?"
They will try to hurry you and bully you. DO NOT LET THEM. STAY IN CONTROL BY REPHRASING THEIR QUESTIONS EXAUSTIVELY.
You still will be ill when you come home tonight. Do not count on seeing anything that resembles Christianity at this meeting.
Take care.
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UnConfused
As to appeal committees. I don't recall any going to appeal in my area, but I would say that overturning one would be very possible. Here is the reason.
MANY elders feel other elders or bodies of elders are idiots. Certain congregations have specific reputations in this area. -
minimus
Frank, you are correct. My experience with someone that we thought was cleverly playing a game with us---was not the norm. And I'm sorry but I would think that the elders would think a person was jerking them around and respond accordingly.It's called human nature. It might not be right but it happens----especially when a publisher tries to shake up the elder's jc.
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wednesday
The WTS does not care one bit, except to protect themselves legally. They won't allow any recording (some have done it anyway and if i had to do this I'd for sure record it). You are just walking into a trap, a real kangaroo court. It's their little power play and if you choose to abide by it, well, you have to know they are going to win. They are not open to agreement, no one's going to stand up for you b/c if he did, he's be next to be DF.
If you have the means to hire a lawyer, do so. He might be able to give you some legal advice, but mostly what I have read is regarding religions or clubs etc, is this- membership is voluntary and if you don't follow the rules they can kick you out. The courts wonder why a person would want to be a member or some club or church that they hate. They do not understand they have your entire life in their hands.
There have been many here who have tried to go up against the JCs meetings and found out that you cannot win. It's like Vegas, the tables are stacked against you. They won't listen to your babbling about 607- they don't care. They just intend to protect themselves legally and they are 3 and you are 1. They win.
I'd put everything in writing and not let them corner me. Don't let them call the shots, you will always lose. They are bored out of their mind about 607 and the UN stuff, apostate babbling, they say. They don't' care what the wts has done, they are going to protect it- their lives are so wrapped up in ti, they have no choice. If they side with you, the wts will send out an investigative body of elders and REMOVE them and replace them with more compliant elders (think, Gainesville Texas)
and yes I do know that some elders really care and are honestly trying to help othes. They get removed b/c they don't play by the wts rules. MOTHER must survive. (see seekers post)
good luck
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dawg
When they ask you if you think the Wt organization is god's spirit guided organization, don't freaking answer them... throw them a bible and ask them where it says you don't have the right to question the dictates of men.
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OnTheWayOut
What you need to ask yourself instead of why wouldn't elders let an accused person take notes, is why are not such rights clearly outlined to all of JW's before they get in trouble? Or more importantly, why are not JC recorded so as to keep everyone honest?
Why are not the accused who must face 3 men, schooled in the procedural world of JW does & don'ts of excommunication, allowed a learned advocate to help them defend/present their case?
I think you know the answers.
These are good points.
Tell us what your experience is with appeals. Out of 100 JC who df'd and were appealed, how many would you know for sure got overturned? I would say less than 1 in 500 - 1000 if that! In the years I actually paid attention to such matters I can recall only 1 appeal committee helping to overrule a decision. It took almost 6 hours until the original committee could be convinced to change their mind. Afterwards the chairman of the appeal committee announced he was moving to another province unexpectedly.
I've never been on an appeal committee, and nobody ever appealed a DF that I was on the committee for. They were extremely rare and I would say I heard of 2 successful appeals out of 50 cases ever. That's better than 1 in 500.
It's a good point, also that investigative committees usually determine guilt before the JC forms. Keeping in mind that usually the Investigative committee of two is put into the JC of three. So in clear cases of guilt, repentance is the only thing to look for.
In the cases of apostasy, it usually isn't clearcut. People are saying something or one person came forward. It sounds like its true so lets go ask him. That would make sense. If he denies this, and there's only one witness, we can say there's no need for a JC. AH, but asking the so-called guilty party allows them to be fully tipped off before the JC. A good investigative committee would do that. I know I did. A witch-hunt would form the JC and try to get the confession in session. So do I know that some are done before they start, yes.
Even in most predetermined guilt cases, they want to help the person.
Min, I think I said on p. 1 that most of us aren't Ray Franz. Of course they were going to get him. Some others, also. I admitted that. Without being directly involved, we must assume a particular case has a chance of altering the outcome to their favor.
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changeling
Hey you guys, are you trying to help Drew or trying to show who is smarter and give better advice???
Drew, I'm so sorry you are facing the executioner. My feeling is it won't go well, but I could be wrong.
Whatever happens, don't let them take your dignity.
changeling
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drew sagan
Just wanted to say that the JC is now behind us. Thank you for all of your advice. Special thanks to minimus and marvin who made themselves very vocal in this thread. I appreciate it.
We have a record of the conversation, and now know exactly where we are. I'll post more details about it all later. It seems as though we are finished, but I have a few more tricks up my sleeve. A number of things have turned towards possibly giving us what we need, but we will really have to wait and see. I'll start a new thread about the ordeal later.
Peace and goodnight!
-Drew -
Frank75
OTWO -
In the cases of apostasy, it usually isn't clearcut. People are saying something or one person came forward. It sounds like its true so lets go ask him. That would make sense. If he denies this, and there's only one witness, we can say there's no need for a JC. AH, but asking the so-called guilty party allows them to be fully tipped off before the JC. A good investigative committee would do that. I know I did. A witch-hunt would form the JC and try to get the confession in session. So do I know that some are done before they start, yes.
Even in most predetermined guilt cases, they want to help the person.
Sorry if it seems this thread is being hijacked. Just a quick note about the above comment.
In my "apostasy" case my mother wrote out a letter with 4 things i allegedly said to her. Since I recorded the meeting, I transcribed the document word for word as they told me I couldn't have a copy while all 6 elders did. The truth is nothing she said that I said was apostate. For example she said I had her read 1 John 2:26 and said that we don't need the WT. I never made any comments about the text, I merely showed her in her own bible. The rest were similar accusations. At the end she said I told her not to tell anyone what I said, which is not true, and she said I had apostate leanings.
That was it! Their whole case relied on a single testimony of one person. I reminded them that my mother was old and any of my siblings would testify that she had not been mentally stable for some time. She had also moved from one congregation that she slandered the elders and bad mouthed them and even bad mouthed them the night I allegedly said those things. I asked Why would they take such a persons testimony as valid? This was now the appeal committee chairman speaking, and he said, "because we believe her". I said "ok, but there is no corroborating testimony that I said any of what she is accusing me of, and I deny it too". They said they do not need 2 witnesses in cases of apostasy if the elders feel the congregation is threatened. We had not been to a meeting in almost 2 years at this point.
So I asked "does the ends justify the means even if it violates the bible 2 witness principle?" They said yes it does. As elders our job is to protect the congregation. I asked them if they understood that the same logic could be used against any of them. The Chairman said, no it wouldn't because none of us are apostates.
I wrote out everything that took place in that meeting and wrote the Society, they convened another meeting with the same JC and 6 men, but I never went. What would be the point, either they had two witnesses or they didn't.
That my friend is what accused dubs typically face in the JW star chamber. Your situation was exceptional.
By the way, our congregation which was small by comparison to others in the circuit, ordered DF forms and cards by the dozen. One year alone our congregation DF'd 11 people and one of those people was the PO and was simply a vendetta. In the 10 years I was in that congregation there were at least 50 dfings and numerous more JC's that gave the usual pardon to elders children's and their friends.
That is why I said out of 500-1000 dfings as that is more or less how many had takien place in the same time period in the wider area that I lived in.
I only ever heard of one appeal being successful. Sure there may have been others but I never heard of it. And the one I mentioned was scandalous.
Frank75