For all you tree hugers out there. (page 2)

RollerDave

Thank you, Smellsgood!

I wondered whether I should don my asbestos undies when I wrote that. I tried not to, but it just bugged me so I HAD to go back and put my oar in.

I try to be reasonable and at least recognize that other people have differing points of view.

Evolution vs creationism, I wasn't there, neither were the evolutionists.

Is there a God? Only only way to know for sure, but I can wait.

And to return to our topic, Global Warming...

It is interesting how believers cannot permit themselves to see non-believers as merely differing in opion, but as actually evil.

There is even a works program, Kyoto; which proponents all agree will only forestall environmental armageddon by a small degree and a short time, but involves huge transfers of power and mandates considerable control over how people live.

Besides the alarmism, I see many other very WTS-like tactics in use, guilt and shame come to mind.

They also frame the debate in such a way that they win as soon as you accept their terminology.

Saying that if you drive a Hummer, you are 'destroying the planet' is very much akin to saying that one 'does not believe in the bible' because they do not accept the WTS interpretation.

Rationalization seems to be in evidence as well, if there are hurricanes, it's global warming; if there are none, it's global warming.

Temperature goes up, it's global warming Temperature goes down, it's global warming.

Makes me feel as if I were in the Borg again.

Believe what you will about the issue, but take note of the tactics, anybody who has successfully escaped from the WTS would benefit themselves by recognizing zealotry in any form and resisting the heady satisfaction it can bring for fear of being swallowed whole by another mindset that may not be doubted or debated.

Why forsake honesty and truth for bondage?

Once you succumb to such tactics in the service of ANY cause, you have done just that.

For what it's worth,

Roller

RollerDave

I have a confession, it is good for the soul after all.

I only just now viewed the video link supplied by Whereami.

It really DOES present some points of interest regarding the debate over global climate change and the tactics used to promote the theory of a manmade cause of such change.

Keeping in mind the analogy drawn by Whereami between methods of the political activists within the modern environmental movemant and the WTS I was struck by several points. The most interesting to me was the similarity between the Climate models and the NWT, defended by one side because their beliefs are based upon them, excoriated as innacurate and biased by the other side.

So, thanks Whereami for linking this, it gave me quite a bit to think about, and I did manage to find a torrent file for it, so I'll be showing around.

Kudos, Roller

smellsgood

Dave,

I can see you and I think alike in alot of ways. I do have an open mind to the evidence that is presented, and I can see that it could be warming. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but I think the frenzied pontificating and disaster mongering is over the top and borderline religiousity. Why is it so dangerous to say the FACT for example that the earth has historically had warmer periods? I think one very positive thing that will come out of this will be cleaner fuels, and hopefully reduction in oil consumption which is always excellent.

Isn't it funny how a person like you has to feel concerned about posting what they believe since it is controversial? I say we need the controversy. I hate political correct bullshit, that's what I'm mainly spouting off about it, it gets under my skin and makes me feel bound and gagged. I wanna anti-correct revolution. Bring it.

"Besides the alarmism, I see many other very WTS-like tactics in use, guilt and shame come to mind."

You forget the us vs. them. I feel there is a heavy dogmatism as well. Don't forget the villification of the dissident and superiority complex. They should realise that not everyone will completely embrace everything the Scientific community espouses. If I'm not mistaken,,,Scientists have been wrong before??? Or are they infallible gods not to be challenged?

"Temperature goes up, it's global warming Temperature goes down, it's global warming."

I got a sunburn last year. I'm pretty sure it was global warming.

Like I said, I care about the environment, but the zealotry and alarmism really bug me. Hell, you know I'd love to have a hybrid car, but it's new and can't afford it. You know, I'd love to have solar energy powered house. Don't have the capitol for it. Why don't the rich celebrities understand the common people don't have millions to go buy the newest car and completely rework their homes?

"Believe what you will about the issue, but take note of the tactics, anybody who has successfully escaped from the WTS would benefit themselves by recognizing zealotry in any form and resisting the heady satisfaction it can bring for fear of being swallowed whole by another mindset that may not be doubted or debated."

Why forsake honesty and truth for bondage?"

Brilliant Dave. Why forsake honesty? OMG no kidding. Just to illustrate, the modern day Mayans protesting Mel Gibsons Apocolypto. I saw it, and of course it was dramatized, and the Mayans were made into Cinematic villians, because that was their stage the CINEMA. Now, they were saying it was racist or something. It's like, what? How does a movie set hundreds and hundreds of years about a group of people that you are NOT, make it racially motivated against Mayans? Should we change the facts of History? Is a movie made about Hitler portraying him as the mass murderer psychopath that he was an account that is based in history, or an account that was constructed only to relieve a filmmakers radical anti-Germany and German peoples sentiments? I mean, it's beyond ridiculous. That captures it a bit how I see and how you said we forsake honesty,,,so we can be offended.

smellsgood

whereami

Dave you took the words right out of my mouth!! The similarities are amazing. If only people would stop, step back and use their brain for a second they would see things for what they really are.

neverendingjourney

I'll take the opinions of trained scientists over the opinions of laypeople on matters of science (such as climate change) any day of the week. If I feel sick, I'm going to take the advice of a doctor over that of some untrained person. Haven't doctors been wrong before? Yes, but they're word is more reliable than that of people with no training in the matter. There has not been a credible scientific study that has been presented in a peer-reviewed scientific journal debunking the seriousness of climate change. Does that mean that we all need to stop driving cars right now? Probably not. There are many disputes among scientists about the seriousness of the problem and the role humans are playing in accelerating the problem, but there is no debate amons scientists about the fact that climate change exists. Even climate change's arch nemesis, George W. Bush, recently called for a plan to cut emissions. Get with the ballgame, folks. The conspiracy theorists that claim that climate change is one big conspiracy are being marginalized more and more every day. If you want to keep your heads in the sand about the problem, go ahead. That's your right. But don't claim that the problem isn't real. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own set of facts.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-bush_frijun01,1,7176873.story?coll=chi-news-hed

whereami

Did you not see the video??? Who is disputing Global Warming? You might want to go back and see it again. Trained scientist? Who do you think these people in the video were, actors?

neverendingjourney

Your link doesn't work. But I think I made my point. Where's the credible scientific data that climate change isn't real? Where is that data? Why do the vast majority of scientists that are qualified to speak out on this issue say that climate change is a real threat to the Earth? Show me that data and I might change my mind. I'm not saying to mindlessly follow what someone with a Ph.D. might say, but think about it this way: if you had 50 doctors that say you have cancer and need chemotherapy to live and you had one doctor that said you really don't have cancer, who would you listen to? The science tells us that climate change is a problem that needs to be addressed. You can find comfort in your conspiracy theory videos, but the facts are still the facts. Now if you'll excuse me, my "tree hugger" ass is going to read up on how Bush was responsible for 9/11 and how aliens really built the pyramids.

bigdreaux

it cracks me up that al gore is pushing carbon offsets. i'm sure everyone is aware he sells these things. follow the money.

bigdreaux

whereami, no one disputes global warming. what is in question is the SOURCE of it. the earth goes through trends. we are in a warming trend. everyone is screaming about carbon dioxide that cars produce. the thing is, if you do research, the amount of this "greenhouse gas" is non-linear. in layman's terms, more co2 does not necessarily mean hotter climates.

SixofNine

oh look, stupid people talking shit amongst themselves.

For all you tree hugers out there.

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