This is only the second time I've done this, but I'd like to make it a bimonthly thing. (In the "twice a month" sense, not "once every two months.") I'm gonna type up the sudgested presentations for this months magazines and books, then I'm going to give my reccomendations on what to say.
This month it's the Awake on Money which there are two presentations for, the Watchtower on Evil, and another Watchtower about Morals. Then the books are the Family happiness book, and the Is there a Creator Who Cares book.
I already did the first Awake presentation, the 'Evil' Watchtower and the Creator book here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/135426/1.ashx So now I'll do the Family book, the second Awake presentation and the Watchtower on morals.
This is just what I personally would say. Or would like to say.
Also, my goal is not to convert them, or make them like me. My goal is simply to have fun. In my eyes, I'm the winner if the JW has to drop the topic or has nothing to say in response.
I'm basing the probable JW responses on what I personaly would have said if I were the JW. Also, I'm polite, I NEVER interupt people... EVER... So I'm going to assume that the JW will not interupt me in the middle of one of my rants. (If they do then they aren't worth talking to.)
Watchtower. June 15:
"Have you noticed that many today are choosing their own standards of right and wrong?[Allow for response.] Here is and example of the timeless direction found in the Bible. [Read a scripture from the box on pages 6-7.] This magazine explains how we are benefited by embracing the Bible's moral values."
The box on pages 6-7 called "Timeless Principles" is a list of sctiptures that it would be a good idea to follow. Most of them I agree with completely, some I agree with partly and some I disagree with completely. I'm gonna take these in groups. But it their entirety they are:
The Golden rule, Love your neighbor, Respect and honor others, Pursue peace, Be forgiving, Be loyal/faithful, Be honest, Be truthful/fair, Be industrious/diligent, Be mild/compassionate/kind, Conquer evil with good, Give God your best.
The witnesses are starting out with doom and gloom as usual. I'd like to turn that around into a good thing just to shake them up a bit:
JW: "Have you noticed that many today are choosing their own standards of right and wrong?"
Me: "Yeah, isn't it great that people have finally started to let go of archaic prejudices and learned to except different lifestyles?"
JW Will either ignore the fact that I responded in the complete opposite way that I was supposed too and go ahead and read a scripture from the box. Or specify that he meant it as a bad thing and back it up with some example... then read a scripture from the box. (Notice that the box doesn't contain anything like the Bible's opinion on rape: [
Deuteronomy 22:28-29] Or it's punishment for minute things: [Numbers 15:32-36] )Option 1, my favorite option: The Golden Rule:
"All things, therefore that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean."Me: "Hey, did you know that Jesus didn't invent the Golden Rule?"
JW: "What do you meen?"
Me: "Yeah, there were a whole bunch of other versions of that long before Jesus showed up. For example: "One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due to selfish desire." That was written in 300 BCE in the Mahabharata"
This is probably tottally new to the Witness, I never knew that until I left. I think this would be fun, because you have completely switched it around, and are teaching the Witness something very interesting. And something that isn't directly apostate, so they'll probably listen. (There's a whole wikipedia article about this, if you're interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule#History )
I'd continue the conversation on a nice interesting note. But the next time the witness is told that the Golden Rule is some divine teaching that proves Jesus is the messiah, he'll already know otherwise... (I still wouldn't accept the magazines... after all, I obviously know more about the subject then the witness does!!!)
Option 2, something generic that I agree with:
Pursue peace, Be forgiving, Be honest, Be mild/compassionate/kind, Etc.JW:"This magazine explains how we are benefited by embracing the Bible's moral values."
Me: "Yeah I agree, that's pretty good advice. But do you really need the Bible to tell you that?"
JW: "What do you mean?"
Me: "Well that's pretty much common sense. People want peace, and you're more likely to get something if you pursue it, so therefore it's better to pursue peace."
JW: "Yeah, but the Bible can provide good information on things that aren't so obvious in all aspects of our life."
Me: "But a lot of Bible principles aren't so good."
JW thinking he can correct me by pointing out WHY the Bible is right after all: "Like what?"
Me: "Like it's laws on slavery, homosexuals, the death penalty, rape, an-eye-for-an-eye, intollerance and women are just plain wrong. And some of it's advice for day to day life is downright dangerous... You basically have to use Commen Sense to pick and choose what to obey and what to disregard... but then you're right back where you started aren't you? You have to choose for yourself."
JW switching topics almost entirely: "That's why there are so many different religions. Whenever someone hears something they don't like, they change it and start their own religion. But we need to do what the Bible says is right."
Me: "And your religion does?"
JW: "Yes."
Me: "So you are opposed to homosexuals."
JW: "Blah blah [random bible quote] blah blah blah........" Which when translated means "Yes!"
Me: "And you think men are the heads of women?"
JW more dubbish which when translated means: "Yes!"
Me: "And you think women should be forced to marry any man who rapes her?"
JW: "NO!"
Me: "Then what the heck do you mean that your religion follows the Bible?!"
JW: "Where does the Bible say that?"
Me: "Gimme your Bible." Reads [
Deuteronomy 22:28-29]JW: "Maybe we could stop back some other time and discuss this."
Me: "If you really want too..."
Option 3, something I disagree with:
Give God your best.Me: "I'm an atheist."
JW: "Oh... well have a nice day."
Me: "You too."
AWAKE # 2
"We all need money to survive. Do you think it is possible to be too concerned about making money? [Allow for response.] Notice what this says about the results or pursuing riches. [Read 1 Timothy 6:10] This magazine gives some practical suggestions on how to simplify one's life and get by on less money."
1 Timothy 6:10: |
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains.JW: "We all need money to survive. Do you think it is possible to be too concerned about making money?"
Me: "Probably, but it's definately no where near as damaging as not being concerned enough."
JW: "Notice what this says about the results of pursuing riches:" [The scripture.]
Me: "Wow, that's pretty negative."
JW: "This magazine gives some practical suggestions on how to simplify ones life and get by one less money."
Me: "Well I'm not too keen on accepting financial advice from somebody who uses up huge amounts of gas to give away free magazines. What kind of practical advice?"
JW who probaly hasn't even read the magazine will scramble through the magazine desperately looking for a bulleted box: "Here's a box on page 7."
Me looks at point number 1: "'What can you get rid of?' If I'm trying to survive on a low budget, why would throw away CDs and stuff?"
JW realizes how retarted that is, but notices the last bullet and then says: "The point is not just to get by on a small budget, but also to make your life simpler."
Me: "Like the Amish?"
JW: "No, like Jesus."
Me: "But if you can't perform miracles how can you live like Jesus? That was his only means of survival other than charity."
JW: "He relied on god, and god provided for him."
Me: "But I'm already providing for myself. And you want me to STOP that and rely on god instead... So by following the advice in that magazine, I would be LESS capable of supporting myself. That is not practical advice."
JW: "But god promises to provide for us if we have faith in him."
Me: "God PROMISES to provide for you?"
JW: "Yes."
Me: "Tell you what, if you can prove that NO Jehovahs Witness has ever starved to death, then I'll gladly take the magazine."
JW: "Well of course some have starved to death, the Bible says that time and unforseen uccurences befall us all."
Me: "Even though god promises to provide. I'm sorry, but I'm not interested. Have a nice day though."
The Secret to Family Happiness.
There are three different presentations for the Family happiness book, they are in the February 1999 KM.
One is directed at 'young people', in this context, 'young people' means late teens.
The second is directed at parents.
And the third is directed at elderly people
Presentation #1 Teenagers/Early 20s:
"When meeting a young person, you might say:
? "Many in your age group are thinking about marriage. But where can you find reliable information on the subject? [Allow for response.] Young people often say that they are not sure if they are ready for marriage. Let me share with you what this handbook says about the subject." Turn to page 14 in the Family Happiness book, and read paragraph 3. Then point out each subheading in the chapter. Offer the book, and arrange to return."
Paragraph 3 of page 14 says:
***fychap.2p.14par.3PreparingforaSuccessfulMarriage***3 The Bible can help. Its counsel is inspired by the Originator of marriage, Jehovah God. (Ephesians 3:14, 15; 2 Timothy 3:16) Using the principles found in this ancient yet very up-to-date guidebook, let us determine (1) How can a person tell whether he or she is ready for marriage? (2) What should be looked for in a mate? and (3) How can courtship be kept honorable?
The subheadings are: AREYOUREADYFORMARRIAGE? | KNOWYOURSELFFIRST | WHATTOLOOKFORINAMATE | FINDOUTBEFOREHAND | KEEPYOURCOURTSHIPHONORABLE | LOOKINGBEYONDTHEWEDDING
Personally I already made up my mind. I ain't getting married. Don't want to, and I dislike the entire arrangement, simple as that. But that doesn't make for an interesting conversation, So....
JW: "Many in your age group are thinking about marriage. But where can you find reliable information on the subject?"
Me, matter of factly: "The Internet."
JW: "Young people often say that they are not sure if they are ready for marriage. Let me share with you what this handbook says about the subject."
Me: "OK"
JW turns to page 14 in the book and reads paragraph 3.
Me once the dub finishes the paragraph I ask : "Wasn't marriage a heck of a lot different back then?"
JW: "In what way?"
Me: "Well you said that God is the originator of marriage... I'm not sure I agree with that... but what kind of marriage are you talking about?"
JW: "What do you meen 'what kind'?"
Me: "There are a LOT of different kinds of marriages. There's polygamy, monogamy, polyandry and same sex marriages. And then there are a lot of variations of those four. For example, the marriage between Adam and Eve could be considered an arranged marriage. But in the rest of the Bible, polygamy was the norm. And wives were pretty much considered property and sold. And the marriage between Adam and Eve's or Noah's children would be incest. The kind of marriage that is common in America is almost entirely different then the kind the Bible talks about."
JW: "But it's still applicable."
Me: "So do you apply it?"
JW: "Sure"
Me: "So do you allow multiple wives?"
JW: "No."
Me: "Why not?"
JW: "It's illegal!"
Me: "Well, that's a good reason. Well, if a man dies without children, does his brother have to marry dead brothers wife?"
JW: "No."
Me: "Why not?"
JW: "Because, that was part of the Mosaic law, and Jesus nullified that."
Me: "So you don't enforce anything that was only found in the mosaic law?"
JW: "Well, it still contains a lot of good principles."
Me: "But marrying your dead brother's wife isn't one of them. So how do you know which principles to ignore and which ones to use?"
JW: "Like you said, marriage is a lot different now, so you have to choose which ones apply today and which do not."
Me: "So basically you need to use common sense?"
JW: "Yeah."
Me: "So if I can do that, what do I need the Bible for? It seems like just some extra step to make the whole process even MORE confusing"
JW *blank stare*: "....... Well it doesn't have to be confusing, this book contains practical advice to help you make those decisions"
Me: "Tell you what, if you can prove that the divorce rate is lower among Jehovahs Witnesses than Catholics or Lutherans, I might be interested. Even then, that doesn' mean they are any happier."
JW: "OK, I'll get back to you on that."
Me: "Have a nice day.." (For anyone who is interested in this topic... here is a relatively unbiased page about divorce statistics here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm)
Presentation #2 Parents:
"
When speakingwithaparent,youcouldsay:? "We are sharing with parents some practical guidelines that really work for raising children. These have been compiled in this handbook The Secret of Family Happiness." Turn to page 55. Read paragraph 10, followed by Deuteronomy 6:6, 7, in paragraph 11. Then point out the italicized sentences in paragraphs 12 to 16. Continue by saying: "This book has helped many to achieve greater success as parents. If you would like to read it, I will be pleased to give you this copy." "
This one doesn't even contain a question... I thought that every presentation was required to have a 'thought provoking' questions and a scripture...
Paragraph 10 of page 55
***fychap.5p.55par.10TrainYourChildFromInfancy***10 The quality of a building depends largely on the sort of materials used in the structure. The apostle Paul said that the best construction materials for Christian personalities are "gold, silver, precious stones." (1 Corinthians 3:10-12) These represent qualities such as faith, wisdom, discernment, loyalty, respect, and loving appreciation for Jehovah and his laws. (Psalm 19:7-11; Proverbs 2:1-6; 3:13, 14) How can parents help their children from earliest childhood to develop these qualities? By following a procedure outlined long ago.
(Deuteronomy 6:6-7) 6 And these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart; 7 and you must inculcate them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up.
The italicized points are: Beanexample. Beacompanion. Beacommunicator. Beateacher. And for some unknown reason: " what", "how", "these words", and "regular" ...
It's important to remember that the witness will use this presentation and say that this 'really works' even if their child is currently in prison, disfellowshipped*, dead, failing in school, not even in school , evil, spoiled, grounded, gay*, a liar, nonexistant* or all of the above... selectively.
* Not that there's anything wrong with that.
JW: "We are sharing with parents some practical quidelines that really work for raising children. These have been compiled in this handbook The Secret of Family Happiness." Then reads the paragraph and Deuteronomy. THEN Points out the italicized sentences in the paragraphs... Good Gog that's a lot! I doubt a witness has ever acctually done that whole thing without either getting interrupted or oxygen deprived.
Me: "Wasn't that scripture directed at the Israelites telling them to teach their children the law?"
JW: "Yeah, but it still applies to us."
Me: "But I thought Jehovahs Witnesses weren't bound by the Mosaic law..."
JW: "But the principle is true, we should teach our children Gods law."
Me: "But doesn't the Bible contain a lot of really BAD information on how to raise children?"
JW: "Like what?"
Me: "Well, for one thing it says we should stone disobedient children... that's not practical advice on how to raise children, it's just a method of disposing of them if they aren't good automatically... This book doesn't advocate anything like that does it?"
JW: "Well acctually that scripture was only talking about children who refused to change, but no we don't do that."
Me: "But you do shun your children if this advice doesn't work don't you?"
JW: "No."
Me: "Oh... well what does that book say to do if your child is doesn't listen?"
If the JW is aware of the contents of this book, he will probably try to leave right about now... otherwise he'll open it up to the contents and start looking.
Me: "There: Chapter 7: Is There a Rebel in the House"
JW should open to that chapter.
After reading through some of the information you will eventually get to this: The apostle John said of one who becomes an irreclaimable rebel in the congregation: "Never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."
Me: "That sure sounds like shunning to me!"
JW: "But that's only if the child is determined to rebel no matter what."
Me: "Like what? This part says: "24 In some cases it becomes clear that a youth has made a definite decision to rebel and completely reject Christian values. Then the focus should change to that of maintaining or rebuilding the family life of those who remain." So if the kid just changes religions would that be deserving of shunning?
JW: "If he insists on rejecting christian values, yes."
Me: "Christian values as defined by YOU right?"
JW: "By the Bible!"
Me: "Yeah, but like I said, you decide not to obey the Bible if it's the Mosaic law... That's a matter of interpretation... what if the Child just interprets the Bible differently?"
JW: "We would try to correct him."
Me: "Yeah, but you're just as likely to be wrong as anyone else. And what if your kid is an atheist? Or Buddist? To shun your child for making different decisions about religion than you is pretty crappy parenting if you ask me. Don't you see the problem here?"
JW: "We don't enjoy it, but it has to be done."
Me: "Well not by me... I'm not interested. Sorry."
JW: "Okay, have a nice day."
Me: "You too."
Presentation #3 Old People:
"When talkingtoanelderlyperson,youmightsay: ? "After I read this brief comment, please tell me what you think." Open the Family Happiness book to page 169, and read the first two sentences of paragraph 17. Then ask for a response. Depending on the reply, you might read further excerpts from the book before offering it. "Well that was significantly shorter...
Here is what the first two sentences of paragraph 17 on page 169 says: As the years roll by, you will find that you cannot do all that you used to or all that you want to. How does one come to terms with the aging process?Sorry, I'm not elderly, so I can only guess at the response... I think most of the elderly people I know would hit the witness over the head with their cane for grouping them with old people...
JW: "After I read this brief comment, please tell my what you think." Reads it. "What do you think?"
Me: "WHAT?"
JW louder: "What do you think?"
Me: "Because I ran out of deoderant today."
JW: "NO. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT I READ?"
Me: "OH, could you read it again?"
JW: "AS THE YEARS ROLL BY, YOU WILL FIND THAT YOU CANNOT DO ALL THAT YOU USED TO OR ALL THAT YOU WANT TO. HOW DOES ONE COME TO TERMS WITH THE AGING PROCESS?"
Me: "Internet."
JW: "Hows that?"
Me: "Oh, never mind... By they way, wasn't I supposed to die in armaggeddon back in 2035?"
JW: "Well acctually Armageddon came invisibly in 1914, and ended invisibly in 2035, now we are in an invisible paradise."
Me: "I thought you claimed to be in an invisible paradise long before that."
JW: "No we were always in a 'spiritual paradise' waiting for the invisible paradise... pretty soon it'll be visible after 'Harmageddon' which is the visible version of Armageddon"
Me: "Didn't you also say that the generation of 1914 would never pass away?"
JW: "We never said that."
Me: "Riiiight. And didn't you also say that 2014 would be the date of the visible paradise?"
JW: "We never acctually said that either, that was just some impatient people trying to go ahead of the truth."
Me: "Oh for the love of Gog... I have to throw up!"
JW: "Poor old guy."
OKAY so that might not be EXACTLY how it would go... for one thing they probably would have revised the family happiness book by then.
Feedback is wanted. Should I keep it up? Is it worth reading? Were the conversations too long, or too short? Which one did you like the most? Have some beef with me? Want to send me money? Whatever... just post something.
Lore