I've read your arguments on other threads and you do alot of rationalization. I think you are well intentioned and are trying to post here to show that witnesses can still be faithful without being a drone.
While alot of your arguments do try to present a balanced view of the matter, you do alot of justification and rationalization.
Genesis 1:5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.
At this point, God had set a distinction of a Day as humans understood it. The time when it is light is Day. Then he told Eve:
NWT Genesis 2:17 "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”
Now since Eve didn't die right away, that must mean that we misunderstood God, right?
Well if you subscribe to the witness's translation, without rationalization, God is a liar.
Here's a more standard translation:
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Note that it removes the time restriction on the death, this translation actually supports your argument, but your beliefs say that other translations are wrong. So, in your heart, do you think that God is a liar, the WTS didn't translate it properly, or God intended Eve to cross-reference his commandment with scripture that hadn't been written yet.
Without rationalizations the account shows God and Satan equally deceptive, neither lying, neither telling the truth.
You realize how easily I could mount up a rationalization and God is actually evil based on this account? But rationalizations don't convince anyone other than the one that creates them.
I'm still curious as to your intentions here. Usually denial is the fist step to recovery. I'm not sure if you're on these forums because you are an actual misguided faithful witness, or if you are here in an effort to try to rationalize the injustices you are seeing in the organization claiming to represent the God you know in your heart.
Either way, I can say that I doubt either of us possesses the mental aptitude to dissuade the other to our unique points of view. So we can either verbally spar for fun or agree to disagree.
Your call. I'll toss this little mental tidbit out there: After eating from the tree Eve's eyes were "opened" and she could tell the difference between good and evil.
If she could then tell the difference between good and evil, why didn't she think eating from the tree was an evil act if she offered it to Adam? If it didn't affect her either way, why would she even seek out Adam to get him to try?
What if she hadn't eaten the fruit?
by michael downing 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Paralipomenon
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gaiagirl
Humans do not die because a human ancestor ate a piece of fruit. If this were true, what of the animals who lived in Eden, and did NOT eat the fruit? Why do animals not live forever? Humans die for the same reason every other multicellular being dies. Cell replacement is imperfect, and eventually, sufficent mistakes accumulate that the body doesn't function any longer. It is rare for a human to live to 100, and there is no evidence at all that any human has ever lived to even, say 200 years, let alone 900+ "because they were closer to perfection".
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BEROEAN
The children of Job were the only ones recorded being murdered by Satan. The god of the OT killed tens of thousands of humans. It seems easy to pin the term evil on a character who is called evil, but if god does the same thing, it's ok. I don't think Satan was a nice guy, but I think his reputation of evil far exceeding the things he actually was recorded of doing. Satan, to me, is a bitter child rebelling against his father. I wonder if the angel called Satan was sincerely sorry, asked for forgiveness, if it would be granted to him.
The Bible is not an account of every event that happened. But let's take Noah's day. Satan along with his rebellious demonic cohorts gaze down at the women of the earth and decide to materialize in human form and have sex with them. They produce this hybrid offspring called Nephelim and these half human half spirit beings terrorize mankind. In fact, the Bible calls them "Fellers" because they made men fall down before them. Some of the Greek mythology isn't that far off from depicting these superhuman giants. How many individuals died at the hands of these demons? Was Satan the leader of this demonic horde? Remember, the world had become "filled with violence" to the point that Jehovah felt "regret in his heart that He had created man.". How bad were the conditions of the world in Noah's day that even Jehovah felt regret over His creation? Imagine being a parent and having children so depraved that you wished they were never born! Unbelievable!
The mere fact that you feel Satan's reputation of evil far exceeds what he's actually done is appalling. Do you feel guys like Al Capone, John Gotti, and Pablo Escobar were "good guys" too? Afterall, although they were the kingpins of crime syndicates, they personally were known to be very nice guys.
If Satan were sorry, he would have been forgiven, but Satan has continued down that slippery slope to destruction. The further he falls the more enraged he becomes. Look at how angry he got when Jehovah no longer allowed him to freely raom around Heaven.
I think the Rolling Stones painted a clear picture of Satan:
Sympathy For The Devil
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)Yo!..... Yo!...... Yo!
Woo Good!....
Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faithAnd I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fatePleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my gameI stuck around at St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a-time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, ah yeah(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens (whoo whoo)
Fought for ten decades (whoo whoo)
For the gods they made (whoo whoo)I shouted out, (whoo whoo)
"Who killed the Kennedys?" (whoo whoo)
When after all (whoo whoo)
It was you and me (whoo whoo)Let me please introduce myself (whoo whoo)
I'm a man of wealth and taste (whoo whoo)
And I laid traps for troubadours (whoo whoo)
Who get killed before they reached Bombay (whoo whoo, whoo whoo)Pleased to meet you (whoo whoo)
Hope you guessed my name, (whoo whoo) oh yeah (whoo whoo)
But what's puzzling you (whoo whoo)
Is the nature of my game(whoo whoo), oh yeah, get down, baby (whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo) ..........Pleased to meet you (whoo whoo)
Hope you guessed my name, (whoo whoo) oh yeah (whoo whoo)
But what's confusing you (whoo whoo)
Is just the nature of my game (whoo whoo) um yeah (whoo whoo)Just as every cop is a criminal (whoo whoo)
And all the sinners saints (whoo whoo)
As heads is tails (whoo whoo)
Just call me Lucifer (whoo whoo)
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint (whoo whoo)So if you meet me (whoo whoo)
Have some courtesy (whoo whoo)
Have some sympathy, (whoo whoo) and some taste (whoo whoo)
Use all your well-learned politesse (whoo whoo)
Or I'll lay your(whoo whoo) soul to waste,(whoo whoo), um yeah (whoo whoo)Pleased to meet you (whoo whoo)
Hope you guessed my name, (whoo whoo) um yeah (whoo, whoo)
But what's puzzling you (whoo whoo)
Is the nature of my game, (whoo whoo) um mean it, (whoo whoo) get down
(whoo whoo) (whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo)(whoo whoo)Woo, who (whoo whoo)
Oh yeah, get on down (whoo whoo)
Oh yeah (whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)
(whoo whoo, whoo whoo)........
Oh yeah! (whoo, whoo)
Tell me baby,(whoo whoo) what's my name(whoo whoo)
Tell me honey,(whoo whoo) can ya guess my name (whoo whoo)
Tell me baby, (whoo whoo) what's my name (whoo whoo)
I tell you one time, (whoo whoo) you're to blame (whoo whoo)Woo Who (whoo whoo)
Woo Who (whoo whoo)
Woo (whoo whoo) alright (whoo whoo)Oh, who who, oh, who who, (whoo whoo) oh, who who
Oh Yeah (whoo whoo)
Woo, who who (whoo whoo) Woo, who who (whoo whoo)
Ah yeah, a-what's my name (whoo whoo)
Tell me, baby, (whoo whoo) what's my name (whoo whoo)
Tell me, sweetie, (whoo whoo) what's my name (whoo whoo)Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Oh, who, who (whoo whoo)
Woo, who, who (whoo whoo)
Ah, yeah!
Whoo whoo
Woo Who Who
Whoo whoo -
BEROEAN
I've read your arguments on other threads and you do alot of rationalization. I think you are well intentioned and are trying to post here to show that witnesses can still be faithful without being a drone. Thanks for acknowledging this. Although some want to label me a troll because I don't "go with the flow", I love civilized debates.
While alot of your arguments do try to present a balanced view of the matter, you do alot of justification and rationalization.
Genesis 1:5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.
At this point, God had set a distinction of a Day as humans understood it. The time when it is light is Day. Then he told Eve:
NWT Genesis 2:17 "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”
Now since Eve didn't die right away, that must mean that we misunderstood God, right?
Well if you subscribe to the witness's translation, without rationalization, God is a liar. Not necessarily. Even today, a word can have more than one meaning. Webster's New World Dictionary 3rd Edition gives this as one of the nie definitions for Day: 4 - a period of time; era; age (the best writer of her day) 8 - an unspecified past or future time 9 - one's lifetime; life (to spend one's day in study).
Here's a more standard translation:
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Note that it removes the time restriction on the death, this translation actually supports your argument, but your beliefs say that other translations are wrong. So, in your heart, do you think that God is a liar, the WTS didn't translate it properly, or God intended Eve to cross-reference his commandment with scripture that hadn't been written yet.
Without rationalizations the account shows God and Satan equally deceptive, neither lying, neither telling the truth.
You realize how easily I could mount up a rationalization and God is actually evil based on this account? But rationalizations don't convince anyone other than the one that creates them. Sure, we can rationalize almost anything (Sorry, but I can't rationalize canned Spam). But, rationalization is like playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. For me, the fact remains; Jehovah created all thing and Satan is a rebellious little brat. Which is a story played out in everyone's life. Parent and child, Teacher and student, Boss and employee, Law of the land and its citizens. In each case there's rule makers and punishment for rule breakers. What i find odd is that most people who reject God's Law will, withour reservation, abide by the laws of the country they live in. A country who's laws, more than likely, are based on religion.1. Bela Lugosi was in Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948) with Vincent Price
2. Vincent Price was in The Raven (1963) with Jack Nicholson
3. Jack Nicholson was in A Few Good Men (1992) with Kevin Bacon
I'm still curious as to your intentions here. Usually denial is the fist step to recovery. I'm not sure if you're on these forums because you are an actual misguided faithful witness, or if you are here in an effort to try to rationalize the injustices you are seeing in the organization claiming to represent the God you know in your heart.
Neither, I always keep testing and proving if what I believe is justified. This takes me to a variety of sources to investigate my beliefs. Remember, i'm not a drone. Either way, I can say that I doubt either of us possesses the mental aptitude to dissuade the other to our unique points of view. So we can either verbally spar for fun or agree to disagree. Fun is good. And, yes, my jib is not cut from "intellectual" cloth either. I'm too goofy to take myself seriously. Unlike some of the Noble-minded blowhards that lurk on this site.
Your call. I'll toss this little mental tidbit out there: After eating from the tree Eve's eyes were "opened" and she could tell the difference between good and evil.
If she could then tell the difference between good and evil, why didn't she think eating from the tree was an evil act if she offered it to Adam? If it didn't affect her either way, why would she even seek out Adam to get him to try? I would guess for the same reason Satan wasn't content with being a lone rebel. For the same reason most opposers of the "establishment" try to gain as many supporters as possible. Perhaps, they feel if they get enough people on their side they'll have a fighting chance? I'm curious; do you believe in Evolution or Creation and what is the basis / foundation of your beliefs? -
BEROEAN
Humans do not die because a human ancestor ate a piece of fruit. If this were true, what of the animals who lived in Eden, and did NOT eat the fruit? Why do animals not live forever? Humans die for the same reason every other multicellular being dies. Cell replacement is imperfect, and eventually, sufficent mistakes accumulate that the body doesn't function any longer. It is rare for a human to live to 100, and there is no evidence at all that any human has ever lived to even, say 200 years, let alone 900+ "because they were closer to perfection".
"Eating a piece of fruit" is the simple action. What kind of fruit was it? What was the chemical makeup? Was it injected with a virus that would trigger a sequence of events in Adam and Eve's DNA that would permanently alter them? How is Kidney disease, High Blood Pressure, Cancer, and other diseases passed on from one generation to the next? The animals wouldn't have had access to the tree of life. They were created for man's enjoyment. Man was created with intelligence, the ability to love, and the ability to worship a creator. Animals have instincts. Science has not figured out why our cells will continue to regenerate, but at a certain point that process stops (Between 30 and 40 years old). The climate of the earth went through a drastic change after the flood. Before the flood there was an expanse / water canopy over the earth. This would have blocked out the harmful UV rays of the sun. mankind lived strictly on vegetation, because there was no need for meat in his diet. After the flood, man was introduced into drastic climate and temperature changes. noah was given the command to eat meat. Gen. 9:3,4. Under those former conditions mankind would have a longer lifespan.
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Paralipomenon
"Fun is good."
I'm fine with that. I too enjoy a civilized debate.
As for the usage of the word "day" I cannot comment on the original greek. I can only comment on what people chose to translate it as. Most chose to translate it as you suggest as "a time period" or "an era". The WTS chose to use the word "day". Personally I think it makes a greater contrast between what God said and what Satan said to make Satan's statement look more like an outright lie. When examining the context as most other bible translators do, it is more reasonable. God said that eating the fruit would lead to their eventual death, Satan said they wouldn't die from eating it. Semantics? Yes. But that's how it was intended. Satan used semantics to trick Eve. The WTS wanted a more black/white dialog that portrayed God and being very up front and honest and Satan not as a rebellious brat, but as an evil liar.
This I take exception to. If I am to believe the NWT of the bible as authentic, I need to have confidence that it was translated with impartiality. Discrepancies such as this erodes that trust and when put up to logical challenges as I presented, it ends up creating more headache trying to sort out intent. As to if a snake really talked to a woman thousands of years ago is for another discussion. Being a ex-witness board, I was merely pointing out the mental allowances you need to make to account for a poor translation. Can you really call it "the truth" if you need to fill in the blanks to make it sound plausible?
"Neither, I always keep testing and proving if what I believe is justified. This takes me to a variety of sources to investigate my beliefs. Remember, i'm not a drone."
That is a very commendable stance. Even if your research leads you back to the Watchtower, at least in your own mind you have proven it for yourself. Just a warning though, I started on a very similar path and argued with apostates in a very similar fashion as yourself. Eventually the evidence of the Watchtower piled up and I concluded that the Governing Body were no more enlightened than I was. I had a choice to either put the blinders back on and continue on, or make my own path. I chose the latter.
You asked my personal beliefs and I wish I had a firm set to tell you. At the basest root, I am agnostic. I've researched evolution and admit that it is a mathematical possibility. But most that research evolution feel that it disproves God. Likewise theists feel a God disproves evolution.
The sum of my beliefs is that 6000+ years of human civilization have yielded no consensus and no answers, either divine or scientific. Who am I to feel that I am the greatest mind of all time that has the ability to determine without a doubt what our origins are.
It's a rather laughable stance to argue from because just as a theist has their faith, I can always just fall back on "well how do any of us really know". It's a cop out and I'm aware of it so I rarely argue for agnosticism. Instead I honestly read people's opinions and point out the issues I can see in them. If someone can clear up those issues without rationalization or blind faith, then I am quite open to accepting them into my belief structure. So some times you will find me arguing evolution, other times the spiritual or divine.
Being this is a topic about Eve and the Garden of Eden it would be getting a bit off track. If you want to debate either my specific beliefs or something from the witnesses that you feel holds up well to challenge I'm open to that, but I think it would be fair and respectful to michael downing if we created a seperate thread for that discussion.
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Paralipomenon
"Eating a piece of fruit" is the simple action. What kind of fruit was it? What was the chemical makeup? Was it injected with a virus that would trigger a sequence of events in Adam and Eve's DNA that would permanently alter them? How is Kidney disease, High Blood Pressure, Cancer, and other diseases passed on from one generation to the next?
To expand on that idea, would the Tree of Life then reverse the DNA changes with the exception of knowing "good and evil"? Maybe mankind wasn't perfect, but daily ate from the tree of life to keep imperfections at bay.
Science has not figured out why our cells will continue to regenerate, but at a certain point that process stops (Between 30 and 40 years old).
They have long ago found why cells stop regenerating but have no idea how to reverse the process. If I remember properly, when certain cells split there is a ribbon of protien or something similar that doesn't always replicate itself entirely. Eventually the string runs out and the cells no longer replicate properly leading to defect. Currently science is examining this aspect to see if they can artificially augment this portion to keep cellular regeneration.
The climate of the earth went through a drastic change after the flood. Before the flood there was an expanse / water canopy over the earth. This would have blocked out the harmful UV rays of the sun. mankind lived strictly on vegetation, because there was no need for meat in his diet. After the flood, man was introduced into drastic climate and temperature changes. noah was given the command to eat meat. Gen. 9:3,4. Under those former conditions mankind would have a longer lifespan.
Studies have shown that vegetariens don't live any longer than meat eaters. With the caveat that most veggie people generally are more active as well, but two people with the same fitness routine, one eating meat, the other not have to date found the meat eater living longer. As for the water canopy, while it would have filtered out more UV rays, the biggest benefit would have been an increased harvest season. It would have been very similar to a greenhouse with more heat trapped in made the seasons more uniform and less drastic. Following that theory, someone could reproduce pre-flood conditions by living in a greenhouse and only eating veggies and double their lifespan. I would be somewhat skeptical to that claim.
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eclipse
The Bible is not an account of every event that happened. But let's take Noah's day. Satan along with his rebellious demonic cohorts gaze down at the women of the earth and decide to materialize in human form and have sex with them. They produce this hybrid offspring called Nephelim and these half human half spirit beings terrorize mankind. In fact, the Bible calls them "Fellers" because they made men fall down before them. Some of the Greek mythology isn't that far off from depicting these superhuman giants. How many individuals died at the hands of these demons? Was Satan the leader of this demonic horde? Remember, the world had become "filled with violence" to the point that Jehovah felt "regret in his heart that He had created man.". How bad were the conditions of the world in Noah's day that even Jehovah felt regret over His creation? Imagine being a parent and having children so depraved that you wished they were never born! Unbelievable!
The mere fact that you feel Satan's reputation of evil far exceeds what he's actually done is appalling. Do you feel guys like Al Capone, John Gotti, and Pablo Escobar were "good guys" too? Afterall, although they were the kingpins of crime syndicates, they personally were known to be very nice guys.
Borean,
I have read the account of the nephelim, and of when the angels came down to earth. It's quite interesting. And no, it does not dispute that they did come down, it simply goes into greater details - like the names of the fallen angels, (and how they felt afterwards, and the names of the arch angels sent to deliver God's punishment). How the nephilim were, and what happened to their ''angelic halves'', if you will, after they died. Very interesting account.
Come back after you have read it...
http://reluctant-messenger.com/2enoch01-68.htm#Chapter01
As for your other condescending question which borders on the line of insulting, I respectfully reply,
what is it to you? Why do you care what I think?
If you think my view points are so appalling, then don't read them.
I know humans can be vile and murderous and pure evil. I would NEVER think highly of them.
I merely stated that from what I've read, that the fallen angel Satan has been the skapegoat. GOD has murdered unjustly, without any good reason too! GOD of the NT is JUST as EVIL in my eyes. So why is Satan the only one villified??, is my point.
You are so judgemental, Borean. It's kind of disgusting, but understandable since you are a JW elder, so you really can't help being that way, can you....
Too bad that there ONLY a few GOOD elders out there who are intelligent, humble and not judgemental, condescending assholes.
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BEROEAN
Ouch Eclipse!
My comments and questions were not intended to offend. I apologize for that. The Books of Enoch are descriptive narratives. Yet, they promote the belief of immortality of the soul, hellfire, and eternal torment. Those beliefs are immediately eliminated from my primary beliefs. We live around death everyday. As of yet, none of my ancestors or friends that died have contacted any of my surviving relatives or myself to laud or warn of the "afterlife". My studies of the Bible teach me that Jehovah hasn't kept Adam, Eve, Cain, Nimrod, Judas, ect. in some prison torturing them for lo these many centuries. The Bible clearly teaches that when a person dies they decompose, and no longer exist. The only hope of a person living again is by being resurrected or "anastasis" (lit. - to stand/raise up). Afterall, if there is a "better place" for those who believe so, why aren't they rushing to get there? Why go to a doctor, worry about your diet, exercise, wear safety equipment, ect.? In general, mankind fears dying. If those who believe in an "afterlife" were told they were going to die tomorrow, how many would jump for joy?
From my vantage point, the "rightness" of Jehovah punishing those who disobey His commands is questioned by many. Which begs the question, "What gives any authority the "right" to enforce laws and punish those who chose to disobey them?". Is total anarchy the answer?
I'm not judgmental. Cantankerous perhaps. But, judgmental? Naw!
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Borean,
I have read the account of the nephelim, and of when the angels came down to earth. It's quite interesting. And no, it does not dispute that they did come down, it simply goes into greater details - like the names of the fallen angels, (and how they felt afterwards, and the names of the arch angels sent to deliver God's punishment). How the nephilim were, and what happened to their ''angelic halves'', if you will, after they died. Very interesting account.
Come back after you have read it...
http://reluctant-messenger.com/2enoch01-68.htm#Chapter01
As for your other condescending question which borders on the line of insulting, I respectfully reply,
what is it to you? Why do you care what I think?
If you think my view points are so appalling, then don't read them.
I know humans can be vile and murderous and pure evil. I would NEVER think highly of them.
I merely stated that from what I've read, that the fallen angel Satan has been the skapegoat. GOD has murdered unjustly, without any good reason too! GOD of the NT is JUST as EVIL in my eyes. So why is Satan the only one villified??, is my point.
You are so judgemental, Borean. It's kind of disgusting, but understandable since you are a JW elder, so you really can't help being that way, can you....
Too bad that there ONLY a few GOOD elders out there who are intelligent, humble and not judgemental, condescending assholes.
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eclipse
Hi Borean,
Sorry for getting my back up like that.
I do not believe in hell fire...just because I read the book of Enoch, does not mean I believe it to be true....I just found it interesting because it gave personalities to the fallen angels. It proves that the arch angel Michael, is just that, an arch angel. I found the account and the story interesting...that's all.
I am afraid of dying. I have no idea what death has in store, I suspect that it is just oblivion. I was raised with the same beliefs as you. I was raised a witness from birth. My whole childhood was molded and sculpted as a witness. When I was thinking (which was all the freakin' time) I was thinking in scriptures. I had dozens of scriptures memorized...I'm not bragging about that, just stating where my mind was at as a child....I was very spiritually minded. I was very scripturally minded. I was very Jehovah minded. So something drastic had to have happened to change the way I think and view things.
Now I try to have an open mind about things. I have learned enough (but I need to learn more) about hisotry that it has made me question everything I was ever taught.
I question the authenticity of the Bible, the realness of God, the divinity of Jesus. That's why I started my sentence of my theory with: ''If I did believe in the Genesis account...''
For now, I believe it is just allegory. It is just a story.
I cannot believe that with everything you can read on here, that you still hang on to being a JW. But to each their own ignorance. I have my own ignorances that I need to correct...I still have so much to learn.
P.S. can you please STOP putting those annoying ++++, ~~~~, ******, =====, across the page.
It needlessly stretches the posts so that we cannot read them. There is a page breaker icon, it is beside the paperclip icon.