by nvrgnbk 60 Replies latest jw friends
Sad Emo I agree, it seems to be deeply personal things that "He" uses to "get to us".
That's kinda my point SE and AO. Are those of us not having those "special" experiences doomed to damnation. Isn't the Bible by itself supposed to be enough? In other words, shouldn't the truthfulness of it's message be universally apparent to all, including those who've never read it or heard about it?
I ask this sincerely and respectfully.
I'm not a bible believer, but I have a question for those who are.
How do you reconcile the OT God, who seems to be bloodthirsty and angry and detached from the feelings of people, with the NT Christ, who is nothing but love and claims to be God (or the son of God, depending on what you believe)?
How do you explain that God ordered the murder of women and children when there was war, or approved saving virgins for the pleasure of the conquerors? There seems to be so much contradiction in the explaination of who the God of the bible is. On the one hand, he's supposed to be all loving. On the other hand, that's not what the OT of the bible describes.
I agree that there is a lot of good advice in the bible, words from wise men, etc. I just can't see that the God that Christians worship is the same one that is described in the bible.
I'd love to have a belief system, and it would be convenient if it could be based on the bible. I just don't think that convenience is a good enough reason to believe anymore, and I've yet to hear convincing evidence that the bible is true.
GGG
when I read about Jesus in the bible he focuses on ones conduct toward God and their fellow man.....I don't for a minute think that someone in a mud hut in the antarctic or an igloo in Acapulco will be damned for not reading the bible...God is good
I just don't think that convenience is a good enough reason to believe anymore, and I've yet to hear convincing evidence that the bible is true.
Couldn't have said it better myself GGG.
Thank you for your thoughts my friend ninja.
That's kinda my point SE and AO. Are those of us not having those "special" experiences doomed to damnation. Isn't the Bible by itself supposed to be enough? In other words, shouldn't the truthfulness of it's message be universally apparent to all, including those who've never read it or heard about it?I ask this sincerely and respectfully.
Without wishing to have a hundred fundamental Christians jump on me, I will respond...
As I went to sleep last night, it was on my mind that I hadn't responded to this question on the other thread. I started to think... How is someone REALLY saved?
I cannot imagine for a split second that God will damn anyone just because they missed the message, or couldn't get to grips with the degree-level theology that some insert into Bible study.
I questioned Baptism as a means to salvation. But the thief on the cross was going to "paradise", and I doubt that he was baptised. Symbolic, but I imagine unnecesary.
I then pondered the Lord's Prayer. It sort of implies KARMA (as does much of Jesus' teachings).
Then the following snagged in my head.
Mat 5:3
God blesses those people who depend only on him. They belong to the kingdom of heaven!and this...
Matthew 6:7-15 CEV
[7]
When you pray, don't talk on and on as people do who don't know God. They think God likes to hear long prayers.[8]
Don't be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask.[9]
You should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, help us to honor your name.[10]
Come and set up your kingdom, so that everyone on earth will obey you, as you are obeyed in heaven.[11]
Give us our food for today.[12]
Forgive us for doing wrong, as we forgive others.[13]
Keep us from being tempted and protect us from evil.[14]
If you forgive others for the wrongs they do to you, your Father in heaven will forgive you.[15]
But if you don't forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.Maybe that's it. That was the gist of Jesus' message: Love God, Love others.
That message makes sense, with or without the Bible.
In the book, "The Water Babies", there was a lady called "Mrs DoAsYouWouldBeDoneBy". Karma, and Jesus' message rolled into one.
GGG said
How do you reconcile the OT God, who seems to be bloodthirsty and angry and detached from the feelings of people, with the NT Christ, who is nothing but love and claims to be God (or the son of God, depending on what you believe)?
To be honest, I couldn't. I could ignore the differences and dismiss all the OT people as somehow "fictional", but that seemed to be gross double standards on my part.
Then I heard a talk by Chuck Missler about the Nephilim - the half-demon / half-human hybrids. That then lent weight as to why "Noah's Flood" had to happen, and why God was so territorial. It also made sense of Goliath.
To be quick, it seems like God was trying to rid the world of these hybrids, by any means necessary. Flood, war, isolation etc.
I had never heard of it before. I am still trying to see where it does and doesn't fit into the Bible and my understanding of it, but It has helped.
ever searching AO
AHA!
Now we're getting somewhere AO!
Are you aware that it is speculated by some that Jesus spent time in the Far East?
Perhaps exposed to Bhuddism?
I neither believe nor disbelieve.
Interesting to consider though?
You now are touching upon universal experience shared by all persons, independent of what ancient scripts they may or may not have been exposed to. In that reality, truth emerges.
That's kinda my point SE and AO . Are those of us not having those "special" experiences doomed to damnation. Isn't the Bible by itself supposed to be enough? In other words, shouldn't the truthfulness of it's message be universally apparent to all, including those who've never read it or heard about it?
ninja beat me to how I'd reply! The 'golden rule' - 'love God and love your neighbour' - on those two hang all the Law and the prophets. I'd guess (maybe wrongly!) that most people of religion/faith or none do try to live by those two principles, regardless of whether they've seen a holy book of any sort or not. Could we say in answer to your original question then that this 'knowledge' (whisper) is built into every individual but perhaps, like me, it gets drowned out by other things in life and we're simply unaware of it?
As for the 'special experiences', who can say - maybe someone could be (for example) an atheist all their life and have a unique experience at the very moment of death? The parable of the hired labourers may point to this idea - where the guy hired labourers at different times of the day - the final ones being an hour before the end of the day - and they got exactly the same pay as those who'd worked all day long.
Are you aware that it is speculated by some that Jesus spent time in the Far East?
I am.
- " He said 'I am' "
"Yes and he claimed to be the AlphaOmega"
I do not claim to be God by that statement. I'd hate to think that in 2000 years, people will dig up this thread on someone's obselete hard-drive and make a new religion out of it - so I thought that I'd clear that up now.
NVR - you have a PM on it's way
Could we say in answer to your original question then that this 'knowledge' (whisper) is built into every individual but perhaps, like me, it gets drowned out by other things in life and we're simply unaware of it?
OMG! Now we're really really getting somewhere SE!
Are you "aware" of what you're describing here?
The truth is within all of us.
And yes, sadly it gets "drowned out" by so many things.
And yes, being aware of this "whisper" is the beginning of understanding.
Now, tell me why I need the Bible. Please.
