Minimus, You wrote: "They are good people."
Then you wrote: "A person's worth should not necessarily be viewed by SOME of his actions."
So then are you saying you have evaluated ALL of the behaviors of the people you described as "good people"? Or have they done some bad things? I'm confused. Please explain how they can be called "good" if they do "some" bad and "some" good, but they can't be called "bad" by the same measure.
My JW Friends Visited My Daughter & Wanna Keep It Quiet From Other JWs
by minimus 38 Replies latest jw friends
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garybuss
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undercover
If the person didn't know any better...didn't know "good" from "bad"...can you hold them to the same standards as you would someone who did know better?
JWs, in general, are not normal people. They have been brain-washed (it's a strong word but the only one that really works) to believe what they believe. For many, they've never known any other way. Does it make them a bad person for being fooled into a belief system that they don't know is using them?
What's difficult is when someone, like Mini's friends, feel a disconnect between what they've been taught and what they feel is right. They are struggling with doing the real "right" thing versus the "right" thing that they have been trained to believe.
In that regard, I agree with minimus, one bad action or belief does not necessarily doom them to being a "bad" person.
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minimus
Undercover, I couldn't say it better!
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still_in74
The Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing but a gang of bullies
Gary, you are an identical twin of a dear friend that I lost not too long ago. Hence when I read your posts and I see your picture my heart automatically softens when I think of my good friend. He was a good person, and yes he was a JW for the last few years of his life.
But regardless I must disagree with you here. JW's aren't bad people, we just live in fear everyday. I can finally admit that to myself, and now I can see it the eyes of others when they are having problems. We are terrified of "getting in trouble". "What will people think of me?", "What if I stumble someone?", "What if I die at Armageddon?" They shun people because if they dont they lose "everything".
I have shunned people in the past and I never felt good about it, (I dont any longer) and yes I make mistakes but I am a good person. We just want to be "good servants of Jehovah" and this is how we/they have been taught to do so. Even now, knowing what I know, I struggle to change my thinking.
If they werent good people, they never would have been searching for "the truth" (even if they didnt actually find it)
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minimus
Gary, history has viewed JFK as a "good" president. Yet he did some "bad" things, especially in regard to morality.
Many Christian Scientists, I suppose are "good" people, yet they don't believe in doctors and the sad result is unnecessary deaths. Does this mean they are "bad"?
Martin Luther King was considered by many to be a "good" man yet he clearly wasn't perfect. He did things that were immoral.
Just because a JW is a JW, it doesn't mean that they are bad. I agree the religion is a bad one, though. But I think a lot of religions are bad.
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RollerDave
I have always held that 'you' are not 'what you do.' There is heart condition to consider and none of us is qualified to read that.
I think Mini and Gary could each have a different perception of the same person and both be right.
We can only judge actions, and shunning isn't a top-shelf action, but the conflict exists inside and when conditions are right it will burst.
Not everyone can break free as vehemently and cleanly as you did, Gary, and Kudos to you for it!
But I think if we get hung up on labeling people good or bad, we descend back into that from which we have fought to be free, petty judgemental legalism.
Take people as they are, imperfect, quirky, and loved equally by Jesus, but associate with those who's actions are compatible with your tolerance level and you should be fine.
Mini, glad to hear that cracks are devoloping in the WTS monolith regarding your daughter, may the dam burst.
Roller
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minimus
My daughter doesn't go at all to meetings. She's out.
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RollerDave
OK, the monolith of how they shun her.
It can seem like a wall we are beating our hearts against, may the dam burst and the fellowship flow!
The analogy still holds, and the well wishes are still offered.
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flipper
Minimus- Mr. Flipper here- Here is another angle. Having been raised around this religion, I dealt with plenty of people who would be nice to me in private, talking to me when I was fading as long as no other jdubs were in their presence, but as soon as others in congregation were aware of them being nice to me, a diiferent shunning type attitude would creep into these same people, and it was like they had bi-polar personalities and didn't want it acknowledged to others they were nice to me. What I'm saying is everyone does'nt always say what they mean ,perhaps out of fear of reprisal from other dubs who would judge them adversely. It's kind of your daughters friends to do the giving of the gift and all, but from what it sounds, to me, they're telling your mom not to say anything to others about it is not so much they are wanting to protect your daughter but save face in front of others in cong. so nobody would know they went to your daughters house. I believe they are more concerned with their reputation in front of others, like gopher said. Remember Peter wouldn't associate with Gentiles, Paul had to resist him? It can be alot of mind games. I'm sure they are good people, just made to fear other men, like most jdubs are. My wife is a nonwitness and sure I've been shunned because of it. But those that do that I consider shallow and plastic, and or misled and misinformed. And I move on with a smile on my face. Peace my friend, Mr. Flipper
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garybuss
So Minimus, what's your answer? If some bad allows a person to be called good, why wouldn't some good allow a person to be called bad? I'd really like to know.
For me, a person is what a person does. If motive is a consideration, there'd be a lot fewer people in prisons and Hitler might have to be called good because he may have been deluded. Sorry, I don't buy it.
I actually like Hitler much better than Jehovah's Witnesses. Hitler never hurt me personally. Hitler was never in my home or told my sons to shun me. Witnesses did!