Harry was a good person, a sincere person. If everyone here had their actions and words in the Org. scrutinized and cataloged as much as he has had I'm sure they too would not measure up. Think back when you were in Org. was there no one you judged or shunned? Was there any doctrine you defended against all who questioned it? Surely even AlanF acted as a good JW at one time.
AlanF Interview with Creation Book author Harry Peloyan 1997
by besty 37 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Mysterious
I don't think AlanF was meaning to belittle the man or his life timetochange. Sure my life as a JW would not stand up to scrunity but it was people like Alan that made me realize I wanted no part of it. I think you misread his intentions with this interview.
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timetochange
Mysterious,
AlanF's words: "these men are like aging little children" is to my mind a belittling of Harry. The man tried to work against the child abuse policy in the Org., but apparently, according to AlanF, it is perfection that is required and he should have opposed all of the Watchtower's sins. Who of us did? Did AlanF when he was active? Not even Ray did!
Prior to 1980 much of what has been said about Harry could have also been said about Ray. The dynamics of the Watchtower hierarchy are given little attention here, instead a mentality of shoot and ask questions later prevails. This is why men like Ray have no use for this board.
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Mysterious
I don't think he meant it as a slight but rather as a reflection on how the organization has kept them sheltered from so much of the goings on.
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timetochange
Even so, the man is not worthy of the treatment he received. We once followed the Governing Body hopefully that sad lesson will inoculate us from every slight of hand, even that which comes from a friend.
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Sunspot
Even so, the man is not worthy of the treatment he received. We once followed the Governing Body hopefully that sad lesson will inoculate us from every slight of hand, even that which comes from a friend.
Isn''t THIS precisely the point being brought out here?
Every one of the delusional, despicable, purposely lying and deceptive men of the Watchtower Society---should get whatever is coming to them.
Didn't WE TOO, at one time, swallow every word from ther out-of-touch old men, as now exposed in the "Creation" book, et al?
Weren't WE terribly judgmental of "all other religions" because we foolishly believed that "only the WTS", HAD, or WAS, the "truth" because of what men like him had printed?
The old men who lead and who write for the WTS will (and should) get whatever is deserving of their disgusting and deliberate misleading of nice people.
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AlanF
timetochange:
I most certainly meant to belittle Harry Peloyan, because for the most part he deserves it. While he certainly did some very good things with respect to child abuse issues, he also did some very bad things by presiding over the publication of books and magazines that have misled millions of people for decades. Sure, Peloyan was imperfect, and I'm in no sense demanding perfection of him, or saying that he should have opposed all of the Watchtower's sins. But a man in his position -- editor-in-chief of Awake! for decades, author or compiler of several Watchtower books such as the 1985 Creation book -- has far more responsibility than others to make sure that whatever he is responsible for holds to the truth. In this, Peloyan failed miserably. One has only to read certain Awake! articles to see this. One has only to carefully analyze the Creation book to see this. Peloyan was grossly intellectually dishonest, and negligent of the supposed Christian responsibility that he took upon himself. His loyalty was not to God, but to the JW Governing Body.
Sincerity is not an issue here. Peloyan received many letters criticising his published work and he simply blew them off. We know exactly why he blew off all the criticisms: he was a Bethel political animal, and like many other career Bethelites, he would never do anything to upset his career applecart. Honestly answering criticisms of published Watchtower literature was a no-win deal for him in two ways: you don't criticize "Jehovah's organization", and you don't admit to personal error that leads to criticism of the Society. Dishonesty of this order is a repudiation of basic Christianity, so Peloyan -- like virtually all other WTS officials -- was a gross hypocrite.
Here's an example of Peloyan's intellectual dishonesty: Back in 1992, I attempted to get certain "difficult" questions answered. My parents couldn't answer them (I knew this perfectly well, but wanted to push as far as I could to demonstrate that no JWs could deal with them), but after consulting with their good friend Barbara Anderson (who as I'm sure you know was working closely with Peloyan at that time) offered to help get my questions answered. Eventually they said they had arranged for me to submit a short list of questions, which someone in Bethel would definitely answer. Six months later I asked my stepdad if there had been a response. Oh, sez he, the answer had come back some time ago, but it was that the Society's man refused to answer any questions because some of them were "the same questions that apostates ask". No surprise to me. Years passed, Barbara quit the JWs and eventually connected with me, and told me what had actually happened. Seems that she had given my list to Peloyan, and so it was he who was too cowardly to deal with my questions. Some of these were of the type I mentioned above, where it was a no-win situation for Peloyan to answer them. Once again, the same serious problem of dishonesty, hypocrisy and repudiation of Christian principles is evident.
How does Peloyan stack up with respect to other Watchtower officials? Probably better in some respects, probably worse in others. But all of them display the same intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy and general cowardice by seeing how bad much in the Watchtower organization really is, but rationalizing why they stay. And of course, much of that rationalization comes from self-interest. How does a man of 50 or up start over if he quits Bethel? Overall, I don't think Peloyan was any different from the rest.
You raise the question of how I acted in these respects as a JW. I certainly didn't just shut up and pretend that problems didn't exist. Indeed, it was the repeated displays of stupidity and dishonesty in Watchtower publications and at Kingdom Halls that led me, by about age 29, effectively to quit the JWs emotionally. Of course, due to the usual problems of unwinding from a lifetime of JW social entanglements, it took a few more years to quit in actual fact. And when I did quit, I did not remain quiet.
But there is no comparison between me and Peloyan. I, as a young JW man, was not in a position comparable to Peloyan's. When I saw enough crap in the Watchtower, I quit. Peloyan contributed to the crap, and deceived millions. Your comparison is simply off the mark.
Nor is there any comparison between Ray Franz and Harry Peloyan. While at Bethel, Ray worked in support of Christian principles much of the time, and when he finally realized that the men of the Governing Body were, by and large, lousy Christians, he realized that he ought to leave. Of course, those same men created an atmosphere designed to encourage him to leave. And eventually he wrote a devastating book. On the other hand, Peloyan stupidly stuck with "Jehovah's organization". Wouldn't you say there's a huge difference?
You mention the dynamics of the Watchtower hierarchy. These dynamics are a good deal of the problem with these men. They are precisely the forces that turn intelligent men into aging little children. After talking with many people who knew these men intimately, and listening to stories of ridiculous pettiness and truly infantile behavior -- by men in the 70s, 80s, and 90s -- I've seen that they really are like spoiled children. But the more sinister aspect is that these men are not innocent like children, because they've put themselves into this position by choice. Indeed, they've set up and maintained an organization specifically designed to allow them to indulge in infantile fantasies. Fantasies like their claim that they speak for God, that God directs them, that God will forgive them no matter what they do in his name, that it's of no consequence when they lie and destroy hundreds of thousands of lives. They love these fantasies so much that they, in a thoroughly Orwellian fashion, convince themselves that bad is good and vice versa. So I have no sympathy when things go bad for them, and I will not shrink back from criticizing them. They deserve everything they get, and then some.
AlanF
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timetochange
AlanF,
I'm not able to post here often so please forgive the lag.
Given the same circumstances could you or I really say we would have acted differently than Harry?
Were you or I more knowledgeable than Ray? Hardly. Yet, he too struggled with the problems in the Org. and remained through the problems! Through all the problems. He remained because he believed. This is the conundrum, belief. Harry believed. He truly believed. And if Harry can today be vilified for his lack of action during his time of belief so can Ray.
And to a lesser extent so can any of us who went door to door honestly promoting the Watchtower, we also believed. It's somewhat childish to expect that others wake up just because we have. This is not an expectation based on reality but rather wishful thinking.
Please leave Harry alone, you did not really know him nor did you know his personal struggles, for that matter neither did Barbara Anderson. Harry was right to feel hurt, he walked on water and got the shaft for it. All the fighting and back stabbing has gained nothing. The Watchtower continues and will continue.
Ed.
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AlanF
Sorry, timetochange, I'm not going to "leave Harry alone". Harry Peloyan is responsible -- and deliberately so -- for misleading millions of people with his ridiculous "Creation book". He was given plenty of opportunity to set things right by the dozens of people who wrote to the WTS with valid criticisms of the book. Not one thing of any significance was ever corrected. Furthermore, I personally experienced Peloyan's overriding arrogance several times, and so I know very well why he refused to admit error -- he was too proud. Such pride -- despite any other good qualities -- shows what kind of man he was.
As for Ray Franz, he had the humility -- ultimately -- to admit that for many years he had lied to himself. He showed this by admitting that when he wrote material on "Chronology" in the Aid book, he didn't handle the full range of material fairly, but biased his results so as to support Watchtower doctrine. Did Harry Peloyan ever do this? No. So there is no comparison.
AlanF
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DannyHaszard
to set things right by the dozens of people who wrote to the WTS with valid criticisms of the book
Being the tech head science nerd I LOVED the creation book of course I was still under the WT spell,none the less my reverence was so high for that book that I considered a masterpiece it was my favorite to offer door to door.
This is what happened.. about 3/4 into the book there is a paragraph that states that 'bats use supersonic sound to echo locate" this is wrong and should read ultrasonic as supersonic is what fighter jets do when they break the sound barrier ultrasonic is above the range of human hearing like a dog whistle.SO I wrote the society and explained this in the most gracious reverential manner along with my monthy $1,000 donation to the kingdom hall bldg fund.
I never heard back from them and was DFed about two years later.Danny Haszard Bangor Maine