1935 A Gentle Reminder

by Inkie 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Gregor

  Yet another kick in the ribs to the dead horse known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Of course there is a huge segment of JWs whose eyes glaze over at any factual analysis of WTS teaching. Why? Because these are the same people who, even after years and years of meeting attendance and "study" don't even try to understand it. They just accept it. When I was an elder it used to amuse me how many old timers, including elders, could not explain any complex concept of the "truth". I used to ask questions like "So, who was Gog of Magog?" "How do we arrive at the year 1914?" etc. As has been noted many times on this forum it is the weakest JW that is the strongest.

  So, Brother Numbskull, you're going to refuse a blood transfusion for your dying child. Why? "Well, uh, because...the Watchtower said so!"
• 

  bud2114

  The current understanding is that the Great Crowd began to be gathered in the mid 1930's once the final ones of the annointed had been selected. At the 1935 convention in Wash DC the members of the "other sheep" and the "Great Crowd" were linked as having the same earthly hope and since then all newly baptized ones (except for replacements of unfaithful annointed ones) are supposedly of this group. The "other sheep" represent all people who have ever lived with the hope of living on earth whereas the "Great Crowd" represent only those "other sheep" who survive the GT into the new system.

  The change in 1968 regarding the beginning of the GT altered nothing concerning the understanding that this "Great Crowd" was still being gathered since logically this gathering work would have to be accomplished BEFORE the group could ease on in after the GT.

  More interesting is the May 1, 2007 QFR which made a significant change regarding the selection of the annointed in that this selection did not end in 1935 but is apparantly still going on based on the number of new partakers in recent years. No change was mentioned, however, about the gathering of the Great Crowd which is apparently now running concurrent with the selection of the final annointed ones (oops!, someone did not think this one through).

  Of course, this whole great crowd/other sheep theory was hatched by Rutherford as he realized that the number of partakers would soon make the literal 144,000 number null and void. His plan worked brilliantly keeping intact the 144,000 thing while keeping everyone stoked up with end-time fever with his great crowd theory. For years, the society has used the growing "Great Crowd" as proof that we are near the end. Stay tuned as the WT writers spin this one into futher confusion.
• 

  Shawn10538

  Actually, 1914 was never the beginning of anything prior to 1914. It was to be the end of everything. This is the great myth of the Watchtower.
• 

  garybuss

  Nice post bud2114, Thanks!
  
  The problem I see with the Great Crowd associated with the 1935 date is the passage of time and the failure of the teaching due to the deaths of the 1935 group. The Society can't set this clock back to the birth of babies like they did with the generation of 1914. If they set the clock back to those younger than baptism age (like they did with the 1914 generation) that would mean those not baptized would survive Armageddon as a part of the Great Crowd of survivors.
  
  I think not baptized children of a Witness parent are saved by virtue of "family merit" . . . but when did they qualify for the "Great Crowd" designation? Will the Society reach back into the cradle again, will they re-define another word, or will they admit to being wrong about their whole salvation doctrine? That's the door they are knocking on right now.
  
  In the past when they made changes, they just changed a book, wrote a Watchtower, and added a line to the New Things Learned talk, all without the challenge of a challenge. Now there are forums of criticism, commentary, and serious thought. The days of smoke and mirrors are gone. Their reasoning has to stand or fall and right now they are on a slippery slope.
  
  
• 

  moshe

  ""Now there are forums of criticism, commentary, and serious thought. The days of smoke and mirrors are gone. Their reasoning has to stand or fall and right now they are on a slippery slope."" Good summation, Gary. I just wonder how blatant the failure in WT doctrines has to get before even the little old 70 year old sister can figure out that she has been bamboozled by the Bethel gang. Will she do anything about it or just take it up the keester when the light finally comes on?
• 

  blondie

  So... How can they have been "of the Great Crowd" as the Tribulation hasn't happened yet?

  No answer !

  A question that has been answered in a QFR:

  *** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers **Technically speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms "other sheep" and "great crowd"?Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.

  Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." The other expression, "great crowd," appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

  Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the "little flock." A flock of what? Of sheep. The "sheep" of the "little flock" will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.

  We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the "other sheep" of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming "other sheep" of the Fine Shepherd.

  We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed "other sheep," since they are not part of the "little flock." Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.

  Now, what can be said about the identity of the "great crowd" mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, "Who are they and where did they come from?" We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation." So the "great crowd" is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.

  Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.

  In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well.

  It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.
• 

  garybuss

  Hi moshe,
  
  I see the that some Witnesses' loyalty to the group is inversely proportional to the sacrifices they have made for the sake of the group. Others, like me, made sacrifices but we had our limits.
  
  Maybe for some, something in the group is working for them. For me nothing worked. The teachings were wrong, the leadership was dishonest, the work was un-fun, the chairs were hard, the meetings were boring, the elders were crabby, the assembly attendants were rude, many of the people were unfriendly and many of the ones who were friendly to my face excluded me from social things. The Witness people made it easy for me to want to quit associating.
  
  I must have been born with "bs" detectors working, because I kept noticing things wrong. I thought at first that it was me, that something was wrong with me. Eventually I realized the problem was not me, it was them. I still wanted to give them the chance to explain things to me that I saw wrong, to make it right, to save me from having to leave. Of course they failed and they resented my questions. They not only resented my questions, they resented that I HAD questions.
  
  They couldn't answer my questions so they had to dispense with me. I didn't like the way they dispensed with me and I retaliated. I went through all that before I had Internet access in 1995 and I was like a bull in the china closet. I couldn't get enough information to resolve anything. I read and started talking to former Witnesses in early 1995 and that's when I really started to get rational answers to my questions and I started to get closure. It was topical closure and individual closure but I was finally moving on.
  
  The hardest thing for me to accept was that all my Witness relatives and friends and teachers were wrong and I was right. Trying to get my mind around that just tied me in knots. I had floating episodes and kingdom hall dreams and PTSD. I'd have an anxiety attack every time I heard a kid scream.
  
  Finally I made the break and I realized the danger my family was in. I didn't build fences, I built walls. I went from mostly only trusting Witnesses in my 20's to not trusting them at all in my 50's. I see why many don't leave easily. It was really hard for me to question my own core beliefs and it took a LOT of time to challenge my assumptions and pragmatically check out alternative possibilities. I had to re-learn the English language. In the midst of it all there was a period of time after I saw how bad I had been conned by the Witnesses when I didn't trust my own intellect.
  
  I thought if I was that stupid to fall for this, what else am I stupid enough to fall for? I learned that that feeling goes away after I get an education. I had been trying to live smart by ignorance. That didn't work. I had to learn and read and study until one day I realized I was living and making decisions with knowledge and that I know what I don't know.
  
  I believe for a lot of the older Witnesses the group is their social hub. They aren't Witnesses because of the teachings, many don't know the teachings well enough to explain them. They're Witnesses because they like being Witnesses. They like their life laid out for them with do's and don'ts. They like the feeling of understanding why we are here, what we are doing here, and where we are going. They don't have facts but their beliefs feel like facts to them and they are satisfied.
  
  The nice thing about religion is the fallacies and errors of assumptions made are only visible after death so the customers don't complain. They shunned us, they left the Society their money, they got screwed their whole life, and they died happy.
  
  
  
• 

  moshe

  Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.

  In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well.

  It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.

  Thanks Blondie- it appears the GB knows about the Great Crowd conflict , but has poo-poo'd it away- it's just the problem of brothers who are being overly word critical.- or to change it a little, it's the problem brothers who are being word critical.

  --

  Gary- my ex wife dumped me and sided with the witnesses when I confessed my doubts about the WT teachings. Then she found out she and my kids were silently being marked as bad association. After a couple years of bad treatment she decided to start socializing with worldly women from her work and going out country western line dancing. ( I had remarried). Now, the elders were very interested in her outside social life and gave her the 3rd degree about her weekends. I find it ironic that she gave the KH the boot when they tried to run her private life, but she couldn't give me the freedom to have my private beliefs. I have no love for any of the brothers as I saw first hand how the would stop at nothing to help destroy my family, in the name of keeping out anyone who openly questioned their authority.

  The ones in the KH who get a good feeling from being there will stay in until something takes away that good feeling. It wasn't doctrinal issues that got my ex-wife out, but the realization that wordly people are as good or better than the Witnesses and that it was the KH that had made her miserable for 20 years not some defect in herself. So she quit going and the longer she stayed away the better she felt! I can see perfectly how and why you were angry with the Witnesses. For me , I had to move 1000 miles away from them to get away from my anger over what had happened. - and to come to terms with my personal responsibility for getting involved with the WT teachings in the first place.
• 

  Inkie

  The Society has been spinning its "word" studies for scores of years. Some times they are very critically oriented in the exact meaning of a word and at other times not (when it's to their convenience). When I explain this subject matter to others I often use the following example for an explanation of a great crowd.

  In the future there is going to be a Great Earthquake in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's going to be a big one. There will be a loss of many lives. Nevertheless, after the Great Earthquake there is going to be a great crowd of people surviving it. (They will be the fortunate if they are not too severely injured.) What this means though is that in order for there to be a great crowd of survivors, before the Great Earthquake there has to be an even Greater Crowd living in the San Francisco Bay Area in order to have a survival of a Great Crowd of earthquake survivors. Of that Greater Crowd now existing only a lesser amount will survive. Not everyone in the Greater Crowd (before the earthquake) is going to part of the Great Crowd (after the quake) that survives it. So, you can look around at people of this Greater Crowd and "wonder" are you going to be of the Great Crowd, are you going to be of the Great Crowd. . . . So because you have the "prospect" of suriving you can consider yourself to be part of the Great Crowd, is the Society's reasoning. Good reasoning, huh?

  Nevertheless, the Great Crowd (of earthquake surivors) or of the Tribulation do not make a showing until after the Great Tribulation. And Jesus Christ does not return until after the Tribulation too.

  I have to make a slight correction, the Peace on Earth International Convention was in 1969, not in 1968 as I initially stated. I attended the one at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles.

  --Inkie
• 

  AlphaOmega

  *** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers **

  Technically speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms "other sheep" and "great crowd"?Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.

  Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." The other expression, "great crowd," appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

  Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the "little flock." A flock of what? Of sheep. The "sheep" of the "little flock" will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.

  We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the "other sheep" of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming "other sheep" of the Fine Shepherd.

  We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed "other sheep," since they are not part of the "little flock." Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.

  Now, what can be said about the identity of the "great crowd" mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, "Who are they and where did they come from?" We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation." So the "great crowd" is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.

  Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.

  In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well.

  It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.

  Don't you love their phrasing... look, examine.... but not too deply. Otherwise you will be considered "proud" and then it's bye bye !