Yesterdays meeting and the prophecies about cyrus and the fall of babylon

by freeme 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • freeme
    freeme

    Hi there!

    yesterdays meeting had a conversation talk about cyrus and the prophecies in Isaiah 45:

    (Isaiah 45:1-3) 45 This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut:2 "Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. 3 And I will give you the treasures in the darkness and the hidden treasures in the concealment places, in order that you may know that I am Jehovah, the One calling [you] by your name, the God of Israel.

    the sisters pointed out that these prophecy was given by isaiah like 200 years before it happened.

    societys publications say that the book isaiah was written "After 732 B.C.E.". The conquest of babylon was in 539 B.C.E...

    see:

    *** w76 10/1 p. 602 Cyrus, a Man with a Prophetic Role ***

    Cyrus, a Man with a Prophetic RoleFEW men throughout the course of human history were foretold to fulfill a specific role in God’s purpose. Cyrus the son of Cambyses and the founder of the Persian Empire, however, was such a man. His conquest of Babylon in 539 B.C.E. and the subsequent release of the Jews from exile were foretold long before his birth.

    in the conversation the proof was just saying "the prophecy was ~200 years before!!! even the name of the conquerer and how he conquered babylon was mentioned!" "oh, yes, thats wonderful, i need to become a witness now!!!".

    for me there was no proof at all. just an old book which has a date-sticker on it and another old book with another sticker when i sit in the meeting. i found out that i never examined these dates. stickers alone arent reliable... are they?

    so basically my question is: how can you determine

    a) the time when the book isaiah was written
    b) the time babylon fell

    i decided to look it up. ive searched for both in the wikipedia.

    In 539 BC the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon#Babylon_under_Persia

    Isaiah lived during the late eighth and early seventh centuries BC, which was a difficult period in the history of Jerusalem.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah

    The wikipedia seems to back up the societies teachings...

    its even backed by ms encarta... (only the german version is free of charge...):

    Der Überlieferung nach erlitt er den Märtyrertod 701 oder 690 v. Chr.

    translation: the lore says he died as martyr 701 or 690 BCE

    539 v. Chr. wurde es von den Persern unter Kyros dem Großen erobert

    translation: 539 BCE it was conquered by the persians under cyrus the great

    So what do we have here? A true prophecy?

    Wouldnt that make the bible something special? Wouldnt that rule out any atheist views?
    Wouldnt we need to search for a god fearing lifestyle? What is the right way to live? Is it the JW style and if not what is it? Is there actually a religion who lives in a way god likes?

    Love your comments. Whats is right and what is wrong with my line of thought?

    do you have sources which are more reliable than the wikipedia and encarta (even though it actually is pretty reliable in many cases)?

    What does it mean to you that its "the lore" what tells us about the life of isaiah. may it be completey false? do you have arguments for or against the bible story and the "lore"?

    Thank You All!

    freeme

  • DeusMauzzim
    DeusMauzzim

    You are right (and the society as well, for once :) that this verse is speaking explicitly about Cyrus and his conquest of Babylon.

    The society is (with a probability touching certainty etc) wrong in saying that this "prophecy" was written 200 years before the fact.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah#Critical_positions

    Note that the conclusion of 2+ authors is not based only on the premise of naturalism (ie prophecy is always written after the fact). If this were so, it would be circular reasoning (prophecy is always written after the fact > Cyrus and Babylon part looks like a prophecy > so per premise, it was recorded after it happened). There are in fact many reasons to give for splitting the book into two or more authors

    This is a good starting point: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/isaiah.html

    Regards,

    Deus Mauzzim

    P.S #1 rule in criticism of ancient texts: If a book has a name as title, this does not prove, or even imply, that this was the author of the book. You only have to wiki on pseudo-dionysos, gospel of judas, book of enoch, or the gospels to see what I mean. In ancient times, a book with the title [name] first and foremost means "written in the spirit of [name]". Remember this :)

  • freeme
    freeme

    wonderful ty deus. thats a good starting point for me.

  • freeme
    freeme

    the problem that rise for me yesterday evening is one of the biggest in theology it seems.

    this is a perfect summarize for it:

    For example, from this perspective Isaiah names the Persian ruler Cyrus who would overthrow Babylon 100 years before there was even a Babylonian empire and 200 years before Cyrus would be even be born (Isa 44:28, 45:1). This, they believe, is physical proof of the absolutely miraculous nature of Scripture. This is often expanded to include claims of total inerrancy and historical infallibility of the biblical texts. Allowing parts of the book of Isaiah to date after the time of Isaiah of Jerusalem (740-701 BC) would put all of this at risk (see Prophets Date Chart).

    http://www.cresourcei.org/isaiahunity.html

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    A good rule-of-thumb is that any "prediction" in the bible that actually unequivocally came true was written after the event. I know of no exceptions to this rule.

  • DeusMauzzim
    DeusMauzzim
    A good rule-of-thumb is that any "prediction" in the bible that actually unequivocally came true was written after the event. I know of no exceptions to this rule.

    Agreed. It's a hermeneutic strategy based on experience, not a dogmatic first premise. Stated more explicitly: Any "prediction" in the bible that actually unequivocally came true can be explained more efficiently by other factors that logically require it to be written after the event In the case of Isaiah these factors are mostly linguistic and stylistic (totally different in Deutero-Isaiah) The same holds for the book of Daniel, by the way :) Regards, Deus Mauzzim

  • Terry
    Terry

    Just to print out the link:

    The break between the first part of Isaiah (Is. 1-39) versus the latter half of the book (Is. 40-66) caught the eye of eighteenth century critical scholars Doderlein (1789) and Eichhorn (1783), who advocated a source-critical reading of the book, seeing chapters 40-66 as later, post-exilic additions, or even totally separate works artificially appended to the earlier composition. The term " Deutero-Isaiah " described the anonymous later writer, to whom some ascribed some redactionary roles as well. Some more recent commentators have further divided 40-66 by adding a third Isaiah, Trito-Isaiah, who wrote 56-66. The provenance of the text in the latter half of the book seemed to support a post-exilic timeframe, with direct references to Cyrus, King of Persia (44:28; 45:1, 13), a lament for the ruined temple, and other details. Also, the tone of the two halves is different; the first seems to warn erring Judah of impending divine judgement through foreign conquest, while the second seems to provide comfort to a broken people.
  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Thought I would include the WTS comment on the question of whether there was more that one Isaiah. Dont ask me, I do not know which is right.

    si pp. 118-119 pars. 5-6 Bible Book Number 23—Isaiah ***

    Though some have pointed to the book’s change of style from chapter 40 onward as indicating a different writer, or "Second Isaiah," the change in subject matter should be sufficient to explain this. There is much evidence that Isaiah wrote the entire book that bears his name. For example, the oneness of the book is indicated by the expression, "the Holy One of Israel," which appears 12 times in chapters 1 to 39, and 13 times in chapters 40 to 66, a total of 25 times; whereas it appears only 6 times throughout the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures. The apostle Paul also testifies to the unity of the book by quoting from all parts of the prophecy and crediting the whole work to one writer, Isaiah.—Compare Romans 10:16, 20; 15:12 with Isaiah 53:1; 65:1; 11:1.

    Interestingly, starting in the year 1947, some ancient documents were brought out of the darkness of caves not far from Khirbet Qumran, near the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. These were the Dead Sea Scrolls, which included the prophecy of Isaiah. This is beautifully written in well-preserved pre-Masoretic Hebrew and is some 2,000 years old, from the end of the second century B.C.E. Its text is thus about a thousand years older than the oldest existing manuscript of the Masoretic text, on which modern translations of the Hebrew Scriptures are based. There are some minor variations of spelling and some differences in grammatical construction, but it does not vary doctrinally from the Masoretic text. Here is convincing proof that our Bibles today contain the original inspired message of Isaiah. Moreover, these ancient scrolls refute the critics’ claims of two "Isaiahs," since chapter 40 begins on the last line of the column of writing containing chapter 39, the opening sentence being completed in the next column. Thus, the copyist was obviously unaware of any supposed change in writer or of any division in the book at this point.

  • DeusMauzzim
    DeusMauzzim
    Though some have pointed to the book’s change of style from chapter 40 onward as indicating a different writer, or "Second Isaiah," the change in subject matter should be sufficient to explain this.

    I forgot to add that simplicity is the hallmark of cults

    There is much evidence that Isaiah wrote the entire book that bears his name. For example, the oneness of the book is indicated by the expression, "the Holy One of Israel," which appears 12 times in chapters 1 to 39, and 13 times in chapters 40 to 66, a total of 25 times; whereas it appears only 6 times throughout the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures.

    I guess they count each instance of "The Holy One of Israel" as individual evidence . Note that the (literary) "Oneness" of the book is something different than it having "one author". I'm sure the author of Deutero-Isaiah knew the first part of Isaiah quite well and took the expression from it. That's a basic literary strategy. But it is far more difficult to copy the "tone" of someone's writing, and (hebrew) grammar changes in time. Both of these are different in Deutero-Isaiah, arguing for a second author, yet the watchtower does not address these more important issues. Of course they can now depend on the dubs not being allowed to know Hebrew (as per the september km :)

    The apostle Paul also testifies to the unity of the book by quoting from all parts of the prophecy and crediting the whole work to one writer, Isaiah.—Compare Romans 10:16, 20; 15:12 with Isaiah 53:1; 65:1; 11:1.

    Based on the premise that what Paul says is true, ergo that all scripture is inspired. For the authorship of the Paul's writings, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles . Ah, the irony :)

    Interestingly, starting in the year 1947, some ancient documents were brought out of the darkness of caves not far from Khirbet Qumran, near the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. These were the Dead Sea Scrolls, which included the prophecy of Isaiah. This is beautifully written in well-preserved pre-Masoretic Hebrew and is some 2,000 years old, from the end of the second century B.C.E. Its text is thus about a thousand years older than the oldest existing manuscript of the Masoretic text, on which modern translations of the Hebrew Scriptures are based. There are some minor variations of spelling and some differences in grammatical construction, but it does not vary doctrinally from the Masoretic text. Here is convincing proof that our Bibles today contain the original inspired message of Isaiah.

    correct premise 1 The Dead Sea Scroll Isaiah (second century bc) is ca 1000 years older than the oldest existing manuscript (Leningrad Codex, 1010 ce)

    correct premise 2: These manuscripts don't differ much

    conclusion: This proofs that Isaiah (and the rest of the Tenach) is inspired and that there is only one author for the book of Isaiah.

    Can anyone tell me why the conclusion must necessarily follow from the premises?

    Moreover, these ancient scrolls refute the critics’ claims of two "Isaiahs," since chapter 40 begins on the last line of the column of writing containing chapter 39, the opening sentence being completed in the next column. Thus, the copyist was obviously unaware of any supposed change in writer or of any division in the book at this point.

    correct premise 1: There is no division betwee chapter 39 and 40 in the dead sea scroll Isaiah

    probably correct inference: the copyist was unaware of any supposed change in writer

    conclusion: so, the book of Isaiah had only one author.

    Either I am very bad at following logic, or the watchtower is very bad in constructing valid and sound arguments. You may decide.

    Kind regards,

    Deus Mauzzim

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Note that the conclusion of 2+ authors is not based only on the premise of naturalism (ie prophecy is always written after the fact). If this were so, it would be circular reasoning (prophecy is always written after the fact > Cyrus and Babylon part looks like a prophecy > so per premise, it was recorded after it happened). There are in fact many reasons to give for splitting the book into two or more authors

    Zech. 13:8 prophesied that two-thirds of the Jews would be killed during the "great tribulation", specifically occurring at the end of 62 weeks of the last 70-weeks leading to the messiah (490 years, beginning in 1506BCE). Two-thirds would die and one third would be restored to their homeland, making the end of the gentile times. This must occur within a 7-year period from 1940-1947 per the Bible. It happened. How do you explain a prophecy by Zechariah at least 2400 years earlier being fulfilled?

    Oh, I know what you will say. Anybody can make any prophecy work. It's just a coincidence! Thus I find it interesting that the Cyrus prophecy would have been taken seriously and considered impressive being dismissed as "circular" when modern prophecies are fulfilled though they were written thousands of years earlier.

    Another incredible fulfillment is that of the four beasts of Daniel where four major world powers existing at the same time during the end-times show one single clear-cut military superpower. The Lion in the prophecy depicted with wings at first, but those wings being clipped and the world power becoming less like a beast and more human, represents Japan when it was an aggressive military power. But after the A-bomb attack on two civilian cities, Japan totally did a reverse and became anti-nuclear. That fits that prophecy. The Leopard with four heads and four wings and "power indeed" was thus the only world power with absolute military dominance. And that is precisely the case today. The USSR has faded off the scene as a great military threat and power in the world.

    200 years doesn't compare to 2000 years. Knowing the correct fulfillment of prophecies in our modern times makes a big difference in understanding the Bible truly is a book of impressive inspiration.

    Here's even one for Jehovah's witnesses! You know that prophecy about the vineyard workers? Where the 3rd through the 11th hour workers don't know in advance what they will get paid? That's about the witnesses. But we can extract chronology from this parable since a half-hour is 3.5 years, an hour is 7 years. Thus the 11 hours of work are the 77 years from 1914 to 1991. The messiah arrives in the "last hour" which is the 12th hour (i.e. 1991-1998). Even so, there is a distinction for the workers beginning with the third-hour workers which distinguish them from the 1st-hour workers. That is, the first-hour workers were contracted for a specific amount, the day's wage of a "penny". The penny represents the heavenly calling. So those first in the organization were all of the anointed and understood they were going to heaven. But then, some of the later ones coming in truly did not feel they were of the heavenly class. This became so apparent that in 1935 a secondary "eartly class" within the organization was officially recognized. Thus the organization was made up of two classes now, the heavenly class and the early class. But that is precisely what the parable refers to. You see the appearance of the 3rd-hour workers would be present 21 years after 1914. 21 plus 1914 is 1935. Now how did the Bible know that. That prophecy came from the time of Christ, now close to 2000 years ago as well.

    And there are many more, so.... That old excuse about claiming the prophecies were written after the fact, that things could not be predicted is an incompetent claim made by persons who are inexperienced and amateur Biblicalists. On the other hand, it's amazing to see prophesies fulfilled in modern times and so precisely when you look at those things that have to happen in a specific year to fulfill certain prophecies or pattern.

    Just one more! For instance, the Jews were prophesied to return to their homeland after this "great tribulation" (the Holocaust). Naturally, this would occur as a major jubilee event for them. Well guess what? 1947 falls on the 70th week jubilee for the Jews since that week began at the time of the Exodus, where the Exodus is the 1st jubilee. The return of the Jews in 455BCE from Babylon was the first jubilee of the third day of this 3430-year long week. So in other words, if you actually bother knowing and understanding the scriptures, there are lots of things that are implied involving chronology. Once that 3430-year long week (7 days of 70 weeks = 7 x 490 = 3430) was FIXED by the 70th week ending in 36CE based upon the 70th week of 7 years occurring from 29-36CE, then you can project the entire 3430-year long week and determine when the 70th jubilee period occurs. That is, for those not following, every 490 years is 10 x 49. Jubilees occur after every 49 years and is a sabbath year. But it is also the 1st year of the next 49 years. So every 490 years has ten jubilees (except the very first, of course). So if you have seven days of 70 weeks, a 70th jubilee period of 49 years will occur during the last 49 years. That would be something special for the Jews to celebrate their 70th jubilee week, right? If ever there was a time for them to be restored to their homeland to celebrate this major jubilee. Well, if the third day ends in 36CE, then four more days would end in 1996, since 4 x 490 = 1960, and 1960 +36 + 1996. So the last 49 years, the 70th jubilee week would begin 49 years earlier, which is 1947. 1947, of course, is the year of the Partition Agreement giving possession of Israel back to the Jews. It also marks, of course, the "end of the gentile times." So what this another coincidence? Is "circular reasoning" involved? No.

    So those who do not want to believe the Bible is inspired or true, come up with imaginary contradictions and challenges, some of which can't be proven, like claiming what was written after the fact, etc. But make sure they stay uninformed about any prophecies during our day so that they think the Bible's prophecies are either fabricated or don't work. Fine for them. But for those to take a step further to actually look at the fulfillments or have been blessed with holy spirit to understand with "insight" many of the hidden secrets in the Bible, we know the prophecies work and so are thus quite impressed, indeed, that the Bible is inspired, absolutely; and so for this group, the faith in God and the Bible is reassured and confirmed. But you can't see the light if your eyes are tightly shut and you refuse to look. So the non-believers want to have their cake and eat it too. They don't bother with the details of the Bible that might be impressive as far as prophecy, and for others who are impressed with some of the older prophersies, they try and challenge that with unfounded excuses they've made for themselves. Isaiah's prophecy was indeed written 200 years before Cyrus conquered Babylon and they can't prove otherwise, but it's hard to disprove absolutely as well. Dismissing what they can of old prophecies based upon "circular reasoning" theory, and refusing to understand or look at the more impressive modern prophecies that clearly were written 2000 years or more in advance allows them to dismiss the Bible in their own minds and continuing sleeping. Well... it's not the reality. Especially not now that we have all the chronology prophecies all worked out and coordinated, even the modern ones.

    BOTTOM LINE? Indeed, prophecies are impressive. Seeing into the future is impressive. And the Bible does that quite well and quite specifically, both with relative chronology as well as absolute dating. Unfortunately, the faith-building that can be derived from chronology and prophecy are often the very things ignored by the non-believers and even many believers. But for those who actually want to get the true picture of how effective the Bible is about fulfillment of prophecy, the information is out there. They need only search for it. A small price to pay in lieu of being deceived by Satan into thinking the Bible is just another book and has no ability to tell the future. No so.

    JC

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