I love how they acknowledge Russell and his screwups but not those who preceded him.
Prophetic Speculations - What a Sad List of Embarrasing Dissappointments
by Lady Liberty 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
JCanon
Jc, jc, jc... You are a strange strange fellow...
The fact that they were wrong proves they were right....
Unfortunately, it's a bit complicated. But nothing an XJW can't understand. You know the WTS appklies so many things in the Bible to itself, right? LIke bein the FDS, etc. Well they are indeed the "temple" organization. That is, like the tribe of Levi that was set aside for a special purpose apart from the other 11 tribes, so in the Christian system there would have to be one chosen organization through which the Christian messiah would arrive and to preach the "good news." This applies to the parable of the wheat and weeds though, quite specifically. Wheat was first planted. But before the wheat even came up, that means very, very early in the organization before it matured and grew at all, Satan planted weeds. So from the very beginning the weeds were present. The weeds represent Russell and Rutherford and all that Freemasonry stuff. (The Eleusian Mysteries, connected to ancient Babylonian religion had a ritual utilizing a hallucinogenic that grew on tares, weeds that resembled wheat. That is the connection represented here.) But what to do. It was quite apparent especially after Rutherford came to power and wrote the 7th volume which was designed to establish Russel as the "Faithful and Wise Servant", clearly idolatry, that the organization was infected with these apostate "weeds". But by now many true sheep/wheat had been gathered to this organization which was given insight in to certain Biblical doctrines, moreso than in Christendom. If the weeds were removed at this time, then some of the wheat might have been lost. So the decision was to let the organization continue with the wheat and weeds together until the time of the harvest, when Christ comes, and then he will separate the wheat from the weeds when it was clear which was which. Basically a "wheat" JW is more Bible-based. If you show them something in the Bible that contradicts the Watchtower or the WTS teachings, then they will follow the Bible and reject the WTS. The weed JWs are more organizational based and follow more the Watchtower. They have lost their sharp skills for examining the Bible's truths. So when a false teaching of the WTS is presented to them, they tend to make excuses for the WTS and tolerate the error, not really interested in trying to figure out WHY there is an error. They wave it off as a minor problem. So that's the test now. Whether or not the witnesses follow the Bible because the organization tells them to, or whether they follow the organization because the Bible tells them to. By allowing for some clearly false teachings to be maintained by the WTS, it exposes a witness to which one they are. It forces them to choose whether to reject the WTS or the Bible. Approximately half prefer their loyalty to the organization over the Bible, showing there is little concern for real truth. They are more impressed with the organization and the Watchtower, therefore than the Bible itself. Having noted that though, there will be things the WTS teaches that are quite accurately understood, but some things that are imprecisely understood, or connected to the wrong chronology. But ultimately, when Christ arrives, he does not correct the organization and take it over and kick out the evil slave. Instead, he takes his faithful sheep out and abandons the organization. So that's the WTS' situation now. It is lined up to be destroyed at the same time as Christendom (666 Beast) and Babylon the Great. It's much like many XJWs. They are often the negative of the weed JWs. That is, they focus on what is wrong with the WTS and ignore what is correct. But at the same time, decide to dismiss the Bible along with organized religion. Identifying the false prophet is good, but where's the interest in the Bible? Where's the interest in finding the true prophet? JC
-
glenster
I like the timeline. You might want to add Nathan Knorr's direct prediction in 1969 for Armageddon in 1975:
1969 "In July of 1969, President Nathan H. Knorr addressed 81,000 Witnesses
at Dodger Field in Los Angeles. 'Why are we looking forward to 1975?' he asked.
And then he answered his question by stating, 'It is firmly maintained that by
the autumn of the year 1975, the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and
God's new world will have been established' (Los Angeles Herald Examiner, July
21, 1969)."
http://www.lamblion.com/articles/doctrinal/Cults/Cults-13.phpThe timeline I have so far for the JWs leaders playing prophet is on p.1a,
with the timeline of political prophet playing blunders, sometimes disasterous,
starting about 1/4th down p.6, of GTJ Brooklyn at the next link:
http://www.freewebs.com/glenster1/gtjbrooklynindex.htm -
Lady Liberty
Dear Fresia,
WELCOME to the forum! We are happy to have you here. You asked where the information came from regarding 1975. WHat I posted was from Alan Feurbacher, you will see him here from time to time using his name as his Forum name. You may try PMing him asking him your question. I am sure he would be happy to give you the references. Here is a perfect example as to what Alan was talking about:
Watchtower Prophecy Facts: 1975
"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many. There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6 , shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike res to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975 ." (Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13-14)
-
Lady Liberty
Dear Fresia,
Here is some more 1975 information. Hope this helps. I have personally double checked these comments in the past. But I encourage any who doubt to check for themselves. I got this from jwfiles.com.: http://www.jwfiles.com/1925-1975.htm
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
Fifty years later in 1975 the Watchtower found itself in the same situation as 1925 and true to form did the exact same thing. When their prophecy failed they blamed the individual witnesses saying it was them that 'based their hopes on false premises'. Below you will find the course of events that surrounded the 1975 prophecy. It is the same as in 1925. You will see what was said before 1975 arrived how all were sure of the things to come. Biblical and chronological proof was again put forth to back up the Watchtower's prophecy. How, many were encouraged for believing in what was written by the Watchtower regarding the year 1975. But when that year came and went, the tides turned and it turned onto the witnesses. You will see an unmistakable similarity between 1925 and 1975. Same tricks, but decades apart.
With the release of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God the Watchtower Society draws a picture of the final part of the last days that ends in Armageddon. Showing the reader charts and graphs and quotes from anyone who had anything negative to say about the coming year 1975. In the quotes to follow notice how the Watchtower weaves the facts together but stops just short of making the final claim, but by then anyone with common sense knows the point of view they are being lead to believe.
At all assembly points where it was released, the book was received enthusiastically. Crowds gathered around stands and soon supplies of the book were depleted. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.628-9But, without a doubt, nothing has created more interest in this textbook than the first chapter with its chart and fine information regarding the 7,000 years of God's rest day. The observation that 1975 may well mark the beginning of mankind's great Jubilee has intrigued many.Watchtower 1/1/67 pg.29
'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could.
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.631In their new book, Famine—1975!, two noted food experts, William and Paul Paddock, make this forecast for the future, on page 61:"By 1975 civil disorder, anarchy, military dictatorships, runaway inflation, transportation breakdowns and chaotic unrest will be the order of the day in many of the hungry nations.
Watchtower 4/15/68 pg.227This next Watchtower quote says to the reader the next thousand years will be spent without Satan! Witnesses are taught that after Armageddon Satan will be locked away for a thousand years. So now this Watchtower magazine saying the next thousand years will be free of Satan is as good as saying Armageddon is about to come now, for the latter cannot (in the witness eyes of understanding) happen without the former coming true first. So if the next one thousand years are to be Satan free and that starts in the fall of 1975 then it would stand to reason that Armageddon would have to come just before the thousand years of Satan being abyssed. Thus Armageddon coming in 1975. But they did not say the words 'Armageddon is coming in 1975'. Though what other conclusion could be drawn from what is here written?. Note the following quote:
According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath.
Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7This next quote leads the reader to believe that Armageddon is in the very immediate future. But that would depend upon what your definition of immediate is, or the phrase 'a few years at most'.
I guess it's sort of like the varying definitions of the word 'is' with politicians today.
The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ's glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead!
Watchtower 5/1/68 pg.272Of all the pre 1975 quotes this is probably the most popular, notice what is encouraged in the Kingdom Ministry a year prior to 1975 (monthly internal JW newsletter)
Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17
Kingdom Ministry May 1974 pg.3 -
Lady Liberty
Dear Fresia,
Here is one more place that maybe exactly what you were looking for..audios about 1975 at the conventions. Freeminds has put all these together. Scroll down to Charles Sunutko, and you can listen to what they were saying from the podium about 1975. Here is the link:
http://www.freeminds.org/wav/wav.htm
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
P.S. I copied and pasted the site, but you may have to actually click on the link above to activate the audios.
Famous
Sound Clips
from
Watchtower
HistoryIf you are having problems with Real Media files, use the AVI formats instead. If AVI files do not play, you need to install software on your computer to read this common format, such as Windows Media Player by Microsoft.
RealAudio , no waiting! Must have latest version of the RealAudio player installed, free of charge by visiting www.real.com. (Find the free software, no need to pay for the deluxe.) Alternately, most all computers will play the WAV format files, but it may take a few minutes to download them first. The full message on cassette tapes can be purchased here.
Fred Franz (4th WT president) stirs up the crowd re: 1975 in 1975! (RealAudio) part 1 part 2
Charles Sunutko's full message on 1975! Get your popcorn ready! (RealAudio)NEW! Listen to audio testimonies of former Witnesses who are now Christians site 1 site 2
Real
AudioWAV
filewho subject when size or
secondsC.T. Russell (1st president) Period between the death of apostles and now 1913 31 sec. C.T. Russell (1st president) Suppression by Religious Inquisitions 1913 141 sec. Joseph Rutherford (2nd president) "Why the Clergy Oppose the Truth" late 30's 253 sec. Joseph Rutherford (2nd president) "God's Organization" late 30's 271 sec. Joseph Rutherford (2nd president) "Satan's Organization" late 30's 287 sec. Joseph Rutherford (2nd president) "Obedience" late 30's 281 sec. Joseph Rutherford (2nd president) "The World's End" late 30's 282 sec. Joseph Rutherford (2nd president) "Who Will Survive Armageddon?" late 30's 260 sec. Nathan H. Knorr (3rd president)
"Fighters For The New World""Jehovah will execute all that cling to religion, which is demonism." circa
194286 sec. District Overseer Floyd Kite "Test for Jehovah's Witnesses" re: shifting doctrine (loyalty) late 60's 435k District Overseer Charles Sunutko We have a new date for Armageddon! 1967 273k District Overseer Charles Sunutko Watchtower very explicit as to 1975 meaning 1967 294k District Overseer Charles Sunutko the Great Destruction (who will make it and who won't) 1967 419k District Overseer Charles Sunutko Nations destroy Babylon, JWs are healthy and taunt the world 1967 412k District Overseer Charles Sunutko Nations turn on JWs and Jehovah eats away the flesh and rots out the eyeballs! 1967 434k District Overseer Charles Sunutko Why you have to be in the Society, and why you should make your move before 1975 1967 680k District Overseer Charles Sunutko Stay Alive 'til '75! 1967 52k Nathan H. Knorr (3rd president)
"Do You Appreciate It?"New Testament written primarily to the anointed 1973 50 sec. Nathan H. Knorr (3rd president)
"Do You Appreciate It?"keep busy... Jehovah will see you through the Great Tribulation and Armageddon 1973 46 sec. Nathan H. Knorr (3rd president)
"Do You Appreciate It?""(Rutherford said) 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die!' ... it's true!" 1973 141 sec. Nathan H. Knorr (3rd president)
"Do You Appreciate It?"hardships ahead as we near Armageddon, fuel shortages portend the end, "within our generation," hostile army of nations to attack anointed 1973 393 sec. Nathan H. Knorr (3rd president)
"Do You Appreciate It?"signs of times, worldwide discomfort to get greater and greater, "extermination will stare [us] in the face!" Jehovah will save his, destroy others 1973 256 sec. Fred Franz (4th WT President) parts one and two
Stirring up the crowd re: 1975 1975 130 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on how apostates want to develop a following; their heart is bad. 1983 57 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on the deception and hypocrisy of apostates 1983 23 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on "How to recognize apostates" 1983 300 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on "How or why do people become apostates?" (heart, motive, avoiding door-to-door work) 1983 228 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on "How apostates say, 'You just need the Bible!'" 1983 230 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on "How can we protect ourselves in the congregation." (By just reading the Bible, we don't get the light of the slave class.) 1983 23 sec. Circuit overseer in Arizona discusses "apostasy" special 1983 circuit visit: segment on apostates that is very condescending and whip-cracking, very typical of the Governing Body in the 80's after the Franz Incident. 1983 498 sec. "Carefully Following the Orders of the King" by E. Givens (District Assy.) District Assembly Talk in 1985 regarding being obedient to God's channel 1985 143 sec. "Carefully Following the Orders of the King" by E. Givens (District Assy.) "If one of those instructions is to JUMP, our only response should be..." 1985 140k Famous WT lawyer Hayden Covington reminiscing on an attempted hanging 1997 196k Famous WT lawyer Hayden Covington reminiscing on a brother being kidnapped into the draft! 1997 370k transcript of Covington interview two days before his death
purchase these cassette tapes!
Historic Watchtower Video Clips
back to main page -
skeeter1
This is a great summary.
In case I ever decide to pound my head in the wall & give it to my dub family.....could it have some annotations about when & where each of these statements could be found?
Skeeter
-
greendawn
What those chronologies also prove is that the JWs are an offshoot of the adventists riding on their hysterical end of the world approach, obviously Russell inherited the hysteria from Barbour and the JWs are the ones that really knew how to profit out of it, cunningly extending it to our present time even if they have no basis on which to support this hysteria since 1995.
The return of the Jews to Palestine to re-establish a Jewish state was something for which Russell strove very hard. But the appearence of an Israeli state in 1948 doesn't really mean anything in Biblical prophecy. It is the spiritual Israel that really matters since the Pentecost of 33 AD.
-
knock knock
Thank you Leolaia. Sometimes it takes me awhile to get back to where I was. I actually saw a couple of things regarding '75 that I don't recall having seen before so thank you other posters also.
-
JCanon
The return of the Jews to Palestine to re-establish a Jewish state was something for which Russell strove very hard. But the appearence of an Israeli state in 1948 doesn't really mean anything in Biblical prophecy. It is the spiritual Israel that really matters since the Pentecost of 33 AD.
This is a common concept because the Jews were clearly rejected by God and set to go into exile and be punished for leaving his covenant. But that would not always be the case. The "times of the gentiles" or the "appointed times of the nations" would not continue forever. When that time was up, following on the heels of this "great tribulation", then the Jews would be restored to their Promised Land. To ignore when this happened in 1947 is to ignore the fulfillment of Bible prophecy regarding the Jews.
Fact is, aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant connected with the Jews did not end until the end of the "week" for which this covenant was in place. And that week would end at the time of the second coming. Thus when Christ set up the Christian Covenant it was in addition to and apart from the Abrahamic Covenant with the Jews.
Though you are right about spiritual Israel being the primary covenant in the end, the Jews still participate in that Covenant. In fact, they make up the root! There is no Covenant of Christians with the gentiles without the Jews as the root of that covenant. Paul warned about gentile Christians not feeling so superior over the Jews or glad about their new situation being grafted in as spiritual Jews because certainly if God lopped off the natural olive branch, how much sooner would he lop off the grafted in wild olive? Even so the root remained that of the natural Jews. Isaiah is specific about the ratio: 1 to 10. That is, 10th of the natural Jews would still make up Spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is thus a combination of 10% natural Jews as the root and 90% gentiles who are grafted in. Once the Covenant is completed and Spiritual Israel is in place, then both covenants with the Christians and the Jews ends, being fulfilled in the final outcome with spiritual Israel. Of note, the 144,000 are natural Jews, which means 1,296,000 others making up the other 90% are the gentile Christians. Two branches of God's people, like Judah and Israel, separate at first, would become one branch. It's all in the Bible.
ISA 6:. 13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”
Thus when true spiritual Israel is in place, it will be a combination of Jews and Christians. Therefore, to say there is no significance to the Jews return to Palestine is not having a correct understanding of what spiritual Israel is about.
Remember Daniel where it says the covenant will remain in place for a week for the Jews. That is a complex reference, and refers to at least two weeks. The 49-year long week from 1947 to 1996. This week is the 70th jubilee week for the Jews. But if this is the 70th week, then the entire week is 70 x 49, which is 3430 years, and would begin in 1435BCE. That's the year Moses became 30 years old. 49 years later would be the first jubilee of this week when the Exodus occurred, when Moses was 80 years of age. Thus this week from 1435BCE to 1996 BCE was still in force at the time of the second coming, which occurs during the 70th week of the last day, 1989-1996, which is the 70th week the Christian Covenant celebrates. The two are combined.
1947-1948 is thus quite a significant event in Bible history and chronology since not all the Jews are rejected from that original covenant, but it remains in place to be fulfilled by 10th of the Jews.
Here's the prophecy where two-thirds of the Jews would die in the Holocaust and a third would be accepted again by Jehovah as their God.
ZECHARIAH 13:
8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”
JC
