Isn't This an Incredible Design?

by Perry 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PopeOfEruke
    PopeOfEruke

    I think those flowers are beautiful and the birds too. Last night I had a butcher bird in my yard, I walked close to him and I saw him looking at me...I realised he wanted something to eat!

    So I went back into the house and cut up some meat and put it in a plate, took the plate out and the little butcher bird flew down and started having supper! I was so proud! It really made my evening..

    I told the missus and she said the bird had been watching her eating lunch earlier in the day!! Amazing animals.

    But nature does nothing to me in the way of believing in God. Nature just IS. We are part of it, beauty is part of us and part of nature. Did God make us? Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not. And I never take issue with anyone who does believe in a "Designer", if that's right for that person then good. No-one on earth can PROVE how we got here.

    Here's a pic of a butcher bird:

    alt

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Those pictures are just way too cool. Thank you for sharing this, Perry! I can't believe I didn't know something like that existed.

    Dave

  • Perry
    Perry

    Pope, Well said. That is a very neat looking bird. It reminded me of the silly looking " Laughing Kookaburra". Many will recall the sound for one of the main bird calls on the old Tarzan movies. It's from this Austrailian bird, not Africa. http://www.australianexplorer.com/photographs/australian_wildlife_kookaburras.htm (I'm at home on my Apple now and can't post pics as easily) "No-one on earth can PROVE how we got here." With all due respect, why do you require Proof BEFORE you have a relationship with God? I mean if we had to get "proof" of someone's goodness, origin, power, thought processes etc. before we started up a conversation with them, a friendship would never follow. More than that, they might feel kinda belittled for you not going the usual route of spending some time with them to get to know them. Millions of believers know God through direct revelation. For them, they now have irrefutable proof. This usually happens AFTER they make friends with him. It did with me.

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    I cant believe I didnt know they had butcher birds in Liechtenstein

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    Or, should people just be allowed to reasonably state their perceptions, one way or another without fear of personal attacks? I for one am not afraid to be a rebel. A growing number of others are not afraid anymore as well.

    Glad to hear it, people should speak up for what they believe in.

    Do you agree that one of the miracles of our species is that we can't really describe beauty, but we know it when we see it?

    No. It's not a miracle, it's simply in the nature of beauty that it 'takes our breath away' most of us find ourselves at a loss for words. Some very skillful individuals like Keats can actually describe beauty very well indeed.

    Do you know of any other species that can appreciate and know beauty?

    On a human level no, but then they aren't human are they? I wouldn't expect a Parrot Bird to appreciate art anymore than the bird would expect me to take flight. The evolutionary process that led to Homo Sapiens resulted in us not having wings or tails, but it has given us creativity and appreciation of beauty.

    Of all the times that the consciousness you know as 'Nicolaou' could have existed I'm thankful that it is now, millions of years along the evolutionary path. Awesome!

  • freeme
    freeme

    the flower is wonderful and incredibly beautiful... but...

    what are the chances that some of thousands and thousands plants may look like a animal to the human brain? i think the chances are high! why?

    because of the pure quantity of plants and the incredible ability of the brain to see shapes in anything.

    never watched clouds or a speckled carpet? when i was a kid i saw ALL things in those. when i look at my wooden ceiling right now i can see faces and whole animals. in germany there is a tradition where ppl melt lead on new years eve and throw it into cold water as a part of fortune telling. because the resulting figures often look like "something". sometimes even humans, animals, stuff.

    all of that is completely random but the human eye is astonished by it looks and often thinks there is more to it... i think this and the brains inabilty to distinguish between reality and dream is the source of a great deal of religions and stuff.

    if you watch it closely the parrot flower doenst look like a bird at all (wrong colors, beak is wrong, wings are wrong, no feet, tail is wrong, its even hollow... looks a lot more like a orchid than like a bird). its our imagination which tells us its shaped like a bird.

    i dont wanna say its 100% no design... but its also not as much as some ppl want to put in it.if it was many other damn ugly critters with limbs they dont need and other crazy stuff would 100% prove there is no designer.

    its not that easy. sorry, for being critical in this thread. its really a wonderful flower :-) please forgive me.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Excellent thoughts Nicolaou,

    I leave for Houston in a few minutes to ....you guessed it deliver some large bird cages to a Veternarian. So, I must be brief..... here's my take:

    Working with exotic birds and babies everyday as well as taking lots of customer service calls allows me to compare different species on our planet. We can know this:

    1. The ability to appreciate and know beauty is unique to our species. In this regard, (and countless others) we don't fit in with the lower animal kingdom.

    2. The posession of morality and the chronic violation of our own standards both makes us accountable to ultimate Justice and prevents us from membership in God's kingdom.... or a oneness with our morality. A real pickle for a species to be in.

    We neither fit in the animal kingdom, nor God's kingdom.

    You champion logic as a great place to be. Your logic condemns you. Here's how. I'm sure that you have come to the conclusion, that lying is wrong, that stealing is wrong, that adultery is wrong, (or at least unhealthy or unproductive behaviors).

    Do you do them? If so, why? ....Especially since your logic tells you that it's wrong or unproductive (if you get caught)? Don't you think it is rather curious that on the one hand you can logically determine what sort of man you ought to be and on the other hand violate your own will?

    Animals don't have this problem. They live in a sorta "persistent state of identification stasis". A kinda "joy" because the reality of their existence matches up nicely with their worldview... however small. Humans live in a persistent state of desperation created by the disparity between the reality of their existence and their worldview ... however large. As a result, humans live in consecutive and overlapping states of illusion and denials as coping mechanisms.

    The evolutionary process that led to Homo Sapiens resulted in us not having wings or tails, but it has given us creativity and appreciation of beauty.

    Here's my take on your reference to Darwinism:

    Darwinism is so shapeless that it can be enlisted in support of any cause whatsoever. Over the years, it's been championed by eugenicists, social Darwinists, racialists, free-market economists, liberals galore, Wilsonian progressives, and National Socialists, to give only a partial list. Karl Marx and Herbert Spencer, Communists and libertarians, and almost anyone in between, have at times found Darwinism to their liking. Spencer himself first used the phrase "survival of the fittest, "and Darwin thought it an "admirable" summation of his thesis.

    Both selfishness and (with a little mathematical ingenuity) altruism can be given a Darwinian twist. Any existing psychological trait, from aggression to pacifism, can be deemed adaptive by inventing a just-so story explaining how genes "for" that trait might have arisen. The genes themselves do not have to be identified, nor does the imagined historical scenario have to leave any trace behind.

    The underlying problem is that a key Darwinian term is not defined....."fitness". Darwinism supposedly explains how organisms become more "fit," or better adapted to their environment. But fitness is not and cannot be defined except in terms of existence. In other words, if an animal exists, it is "fit" (otherwise it wouldn't exist). It is not possible to specify all the useful parts of that animal in order to give an exhaustive causal account of fitness.

    So in Darwinian "logic", if an organism possesses features that appear on the surface to be inconvenient, such as the peacock's tail or the top-heavy antlers of a moose, the existence of moose and peacocks proves that these animals are in fact fit!

    The circular reasoning in all this does not go unnoticed by many, many people.

    So the Darwinian theory is not falsifiable by any observation. It "explains" everything, and therefore nothing.

    It barely qualifies as a scientific theory for that reason. The impact of Darwinism on any and all groups of people can be argued any way you want and it's not very illuminating for that reason.

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon
    I have no intention to get into a debate. However, should those that perceive God submit to the wishes of those who don't and just censure all reference regarding their perceptions?

    Usually when you don't have the intention of getting into a debate, you will not try to convince others that their view is wrong and yours is right.

  • PopeOfEruke
    PopeOfEruke
    I cant believe I didnt know they had butcher birds in Liechtenstein

    Ip-Sec,

    they call them Metzger-Vogel here!!

    Pope

  • AWAKE&WATCHING
    AWAKE&WATCHING

    Perry - absolutely gorgeous.

    BTW folks, I'm not the thread police or anything like that but it's one thing to have a different opinion than someone else and another thing to make fun of someone's beliefs. Can't we just all get along?

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