I couldn't skip a discussion of Sept KM Question Box

by OnTheWayOut 36 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I don"t want to talk about it.

  A futile effort would be to, now offer proof from WT Library and everyone else- siting references to the
  facts of the things I said. Showing the information on the NWT and the name of "Jehovah" would be
  the simplest thing. She won't look at the info. and will probably say "I don't want to talk about it."

  Worse even, although I have helped my wife to see that it is unnecessary to "turn me in" to the elders,
  anything I hand her with research on it has to be carefully framed. It could wind up in the P.O.'s hand.
  She knows how I feel about going to the elders, but she is a JW. She is fighting conflicting loyalties.
• 

  oompa

  You can look that up in your own WT literature. To be brief, they take the liberty of deciding that wherever the
  NT writers quote the OT, and the OT contained 'Jehovah,' then the NT should put 'Jehovah' in the text."

  "What sources can you site that 'Jehovah' isn't in the NT?"

  OnTheWayOut says the above and below, and great post. Just like me talking with my wife, but no crying and yelling. Help her find these "sources!" Here are some cheat-sheets for our wallets. Discovering that we had "our own" Bible did it for me. There are very few places in the literature that come clean on this. Not only is there ZERO evidence that the NAME was ever written in the NT, but to say that it was REMOVED by apostates basically means that God did not care enough about "His Word" or "His Name" to protect/preserve it. So what else in the Bible has been tampered with????

  Also the icing on the cake is the total half-truth that Appendix 1-D in the reference Bible says we "have restored the Divine Name where quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures." DOUBLE BULLSH1T!!!!

  1. The entire book of Revelation has not a single "quote" of the name Jehovah from the Hebrew Scriptures, but it is in there about a dozen times, and there are dozens of other NT places where it is not quoted----Just look for quotation marks and lack of cross refferences. Bogus

  2. Even in many places where there are quotation marks around the sentence with the name Jehovah in it, it is not REALLY a quote if you look up the cross reference. Bogus.

  The burden is upon the WTS to give you
  sources, and upon you and every Christian to do research perhaps starting with their sources and going wherever
  you want to learn more.

  The reason I am laughing/crying about the above quote is that I wrote the Society twice BEGGING for their sources, proof, references for what they have done when inserting the Name Jehovah in the NT and all they will say is that they have their reasons, but will NOT supply them. Bogus!!! If they had evidence, they would glady share it.

  (Insight bk)*** it-2p.9Jehovah ***

  In

  theChristianGreekScriptures. In view of this evidence it seems most unusual to find that the extant manuscript copies of the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures do not contain the divine name in its full form. The name therefore is also absent from most translations of the so-called New Testament.

  ***

  it-2pp.9-10Jehovah***

  The so-called Christians, then, who "replaced the Tetragrammaton by kyrios" in the Septuagint copies, were not the early disciples of Jesus. They were persons of later centuries, when the foretold apostasy was well developed and had corrupted the purity of Christian teachings.—2Th 2:3; 1Ti 4:1.

  (Ref. Bible)***

  Rbi8p.15641DTheDivineNameintheChristianGreekScriptures***

  Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky´ri·os, "Lord" or The·os´, "God."

  did I say bogus yet?....oompa
• 

  Open mind

  I feel your pain OTWO. Sort of. I'm nowhere near as far into fading as you are. If I focus on whether or not my wife will ever "see the light" it can be very disheartening on the bad days.

  (Did I mention that I drink on occasion?)

  Sorry to hear she's this much of a "wall" when it comes to thinking outside the JW box.

  I'd like to offer a suggestion just to mull over. I could be way off base here since I don't really know you or your wife. I know your conversation posted here wasn't a transcript so I may be reading too much into this.

  Here goes:

  Don't hit her with quite as much of a direct assault. I know it might be hard since the right moments may not come along that often. Go with more of a "I'm confused" or "This really bugs me and I just can't get over it" approach. This may move her to try seeing things from your perspective. I know it's pretty late in the game for you since you're 100% faded, but it's worth considering.

  That and $3.00 will buy you a great cup of joe.

  Take care my friend,

  Open Mind
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Actually, I am encouraged by the "spin" the brothers handling this part are putting on this QFR. It shows progress that most are not willing to speak in terms of an outright "ban" on research. This leaves me free to continue to use these secular sources in my comments, which I present not as being "negative" or "critical," just "interesting."

  ...isn't it interesting what (insert expert opinion) says on this subject...

  Justitia
• 

  M.J.

  "We will have to talk about this more, later." You got it. This is JW-spouse speak for "I want to end this conversation now".
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  "I'm confused" or "This really bugs me and I just can't get over it"

  Okay, here goes.

  "I must go to outside sources. It's just that I am confused over what the WTS says, and I can't get over it.
  The NWT says:

  (Ref. Bible)*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***

  Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky´ri·os, "Lord" or The·os´, "God."

  The Insight book adds:

  )*** it-2 p. 9 Jehovah ***

  In the Christian Greek Scriptures. In view of this evidence it seems most unusual to find that the extant manuscript copies of the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures do not contain the divine name in its full form. The name therefore is also absent from most translations of the so-called New Testament.

  ***

  it-2 pp. 9-10 Jehovah ***

  The so-called Christians, then, who "replaced the Tetragrammaton by kyrios" in the Septuagint copies, were not the early disciples of Jesus. They were persons of later centuries, when the foretold apostasy was well developed and had corrupted the purity of Christian teachings.—2Th 2:3; 1Ti 4:1.

  But there is no evidence in WT literature or anywhere else of these scribes removing the name. Outside experts say
  that all ancient copies show the name was never there.

  Notice this:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament
  
  

  Written in Greek, no known copies of the New Testament contain the MasoreticYHWH or
  one of its vocalizations, Jehovah. However, a number of modern Bible versions include
  variations of YHWH as the name of God in the New Testament. The best known of these
  is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published by Jehovah's Witnesses, a
  religion based on the belief that Jehovah is the one and only name for God.

  Although YHWH does not appear in known copies of the original language (Koine Greek) in
  which the New Testament was written, Jehovah's Witnesses believe it important that some
  obscure, modern versions have replaced the original wording with versions of YHWH.
  However in all actual translations of the New Testament into English, ?e?? is rendered God,
  ?????? Lord, ??s???, Jesus, and ???st??, Christ. Thus many translators conclude that YHVH
  cannot be included in a New Testament translation.

  The New Testament is one of the best attested of all ancient writings with over 5,000 Greekextant manuscripts of the New Testament. The Tetragrammaton does not appear in any known
  original-language manuscripts of the New Testament, despite the discovery of papyrus fragments
  of the New Testament dating back to the middle of the second century. One of the most ancient
  fragments, the papyrus codex designated Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 [P46] is dated prior to
  200 A.D. and contains nine of the apostle Paul's letters. Of all 5,000 manuscripts, none contains
  either the Hebrew (YHWH) or Greek (Iabe) transliterations of the divine name.

  My concern is that we are basically told not to examine sources that show that the WTS and
  the NWT could be in error. I feel that it is my duty to continue examining the faith. Notice what
  WTS has always taught:

  The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life (1981) chap. 2 p. 13
  Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion
  The Bible informs us that “the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23) If our worship is to be acceptable to God, it must be firmly
  rooted in God’s Word of truth. Jesus reproved those persons who claimed to serve God
  but who relied heavily on the traditions of men in preference to God’s Word. He
  applied to them God’s own words from Isaiah 29:13, saying: “It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.”
  (Matthew 15:9) Since we do not want our worship to be in vain, it is important for each
  one of us to examine his religion. 5 We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by
  any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full
  harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers
  of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination. It should be the sincere
  desire of every one of us to learn what God’s will is for us, and then to do it.
  —John 8:32.

  You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth (1989)
  chap. 3 p. 32 pars. 19-20 YOUR RELIGION REALLY MATTERS 19 The truth will not allow for all the different kinds of religious doctrine in the world. For example, either humans have a soul that survives the death of the body or they do not. Either the earth will last forever or it will not. Either God will bring wickedness to an end or he will not. These and many other beliefs are either right or wrong. There cannot be two sets of truth when one does not agree with the other. One or the other is true, but not both. Sincerely believing something, and practicing that belief, will not make it right if it really is wrong. 20 How should you feel if proof is given that what you believe is wrong? For example, say that you were in a car, traveling for the first time to a certain place. You have a road map, but you have not taken time to check it carefully. Someone has told you the road to take. You trust him, sincerely believing that the way he has directed you is correct. But suppose it is not. What if someone points out the error? What if he, by referring to your own map, shows that you are on the wrong road? Would pride or stubbornness prevent you from admitting that you are on the wrong road? Well, then, if you learn from an examination of your Bible that you are traveling a wrong religious road, be willing to change. Avoid the broad road to destruction; get on the narrow road to life!

  Knowledge that Leads to Everlasting Life (1995) chap. 5 p. 51 par. 20
  Whose Worship Does God Accept?
  With a desire to please God, each of us needs to examine our worship to make sure that it is not contaminated by ungodly practices or that we are not omitting something that he considers vital.—James 1:26.

  I could go on, but you get the point."
• 

  M.J.

  I think I would hit it more from the angle of disagreeing with information control in PRINCIPLE, rather than getting bogged down in NWT technicalities.
  
  Too late for subtlety now, but I would bring to her attention specific examples of how other groups do the same thing.
• 

  undercover

  OTWO, I always look forward to your experiences. They're invaluable to all of us in similar situations. Your knack for remembering the conversations and recording them as well as you do is remarkable to me. Not only that, but you seem to be able to remember all the facts and information that you've looked up during your fade and can reference it as you discuss things with your wife.

  I don't know if it's just me, but no matter how logical and organized I get a subject in my brain, whenever I get into a discussion with a JW family member, things go off in directions that I never would have imagined...and am usually not prepared for. I try to keep on one subject, but they're jumping around all over the place.

  When I first started fading, it was very frustrating to try to "debate" anything, the way they kept changing subjects. Now my conversations are usually short and sweet because when they try to divert the argument, I refuse to change subjects. Then they don't want to continue with what we were talking about because that defensive wall has slammed between us, forcing them to cover their ears and go "lalalalala".

  Thanks for your posts and experiences. They help us as much as you hope it helps your wife.
• 

  mind my own

  I liken it to a bubble. They live in a bubble and get very upset when someone pokes it! They are happy to just be in this protected bubble and stay away from the influences of the world.

  They do just turn their minds off when it comes to most things. They hear what they want to hear and that is all.

  However, you have most definately planted seeds and don't think your wife won't remember what you said. She just doesn't want to explore the option of being wrong b/c this is all she knows. One doesn't know where to go from there b/c your whole life is the "truth" and you honestly haven't thought of anything beyond what you were taught!

  Keep up the good work OTWO! After all, I bet there was a time when you thought you would never leave right? I never in a million years thought I would stray.

  MMO
• 

  oompa

  Not only is there zero proof that the Name Jehovah was EVER in the Christian Scriptures, but of all the thousands of letters and early secular writings of the early Christian Era,there is no mention of the Name Jehovah in ANY of them. If ANYONE started removing it, there would have been huge debate and probably violence as a result.

  We use the name Jehovah not like early Christian (which I thought we were patterned after), but just like the earliest of Jews apparently did. We also love to use "Faithful and Discreet Slave" --BOO!-- and early Christians did not use that either, mainly just "the chosen ones."

  scared to death...oompa