Didn't anyone ask him about the stoning to death of adulterers and the public hunging of teenage girls for violating the sexual moral code of Islam? These are undeniable facts, though the execution of homosexuals is also well documented and expected in a country strictly adhering to Islamic law.
Iranian leader's opening rant...sounded like a JW
by restrangled 60 Replies latest jw friends
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Iron Rod
AllTimeJeff, I'm afraid that I have to disagree with most of your observations. I really don't want to get into a protracted political debate, however, since that wasn't my point.
Mary, barry and greendawn got my point.That is: comparing any U.S. President (or the President/Prime Minister of any western democracy for that matter) to this guy is ridiculous. I see many people doing it and I just scratch my head. (Bush=HITLER? come on....get a grip. Not to mention a little historical perspective. )
Most of the people saying these things certainly won't be moving to Iran any time soon.
If you want to debate politics we can do that on another thread. Like I said before I didn't vote for Bush and I don't like everything he's done, but I'll take him over creeps like Saddam, Arafat, etc. any day. As far as that goes, though I had problems with Bill Clinton ( speaking of character assassination ) I'd much rather have him,too.
And that actually was my main point.
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steve2
Steve why dont you take a trip to Iran and stay there. I dont think you will.
Absolutely right about that. I don't think I'll take a trip to the local kingdom hall either because my eyes have been opened. Nonetheless, Iran does have the virtue - in common with religions such as JWs - of being perfectly clear about what it will and will not tolerate. No trapdoors there. So, yes, I know that free speech is banned and is roundly punished in Iran as it is in my local kingdom hall.
Does that automatically make Bush a defender of freedom of speech? No. Iran's methods are overtly brutal, American methods are covertly brutal (think about the terrorist prison-base in Cuba). Bush is every bit the murderer that the Iranian prime minister is - only Bush is able to legitimate his stupendous claims by stating his country has freedom of speech. Talk about a laudable principle hiding egregious acts of murder of civilians in another country. Hussein routinely shot people who got in the way. That still continues in Iraq; in fact, Iraq is now a significantly bloodier country with no solution in sight. Hussein has been called to account. When will Bush be? It's good to see he has plummeted in your country's popularity polls to an all-time low.
Iran is accused of thumbing its nose to the world. Hello there? isn't that precisely what America does? It only goes where the big money is. Hence, despite its self-righteous cries about making the world safer, it conveniently ignores the horrific bloodbaths in Rwanda and Darfur. The reason we don't notice so much America thumbing its stuck-up nose is because of its military might and self-appointed role as World Watchdog. Iran thumbing its nose? That's different: How dare a smaller, more archaic state do that?
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AllTimeJeff
It's all good Iron Rod. I fundamentally agree with your point about comparing Bush to Hitler. (Although the differences in how the government is administered would make a Hitleresque leader here in the USA impossible...) And I respect your thoughts about Bush agressively going after terrorists. (that as I am sure you know is a debatable point, seeing how he went after Saddam instead of Bin Laden....) But there are a lot of people who like that about Bush. I think he just got mixed up and went into the wrong country, lock, stock and barrel. And he is rightly being called on it... belatedly.
Christine Amanpour of CNN interviewed several western educated Iranians and trolled Tehran. I watched the program, and while I didn't mean to insinuate that real democracy and full civil rights for women and gays is right around the corner in Tehran, there is a strong undercurrent of western sympathy in Iran. This is a direct result of western educated Iranians....
Free speech must be free for all. Thomas Jefferson said that:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men* are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
(* all men and women.....)
Even if the Iranian President doesn't honor this, we do! The United States was founded by brilliant thinkers who put their trust in the ability of the people to think for themselves. Let him have his say. We are the better people for it. We will certainly disagree with him, and vigorously so. But imo, the USA should not ever be in the business of shutting down controversial speech. The consequences are too dangerous.
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restrangled
I loved what All time Jeff said:
Even if the Iranian President doesn't honor this, we do! The United States was founded by brilliant thinkers who put their trust in the ability of the people to think for themselves. Let him have his say. We are the better people for it. We will certainly disagree with him, and vigorously so. But imo, the USA should not ever be in the business of shutting down controversial speech. The consequences are too danger
That also was stated in the speech by Comibia's spokesman. How fortunate we are to hear any and all opinions. It is the beauty of this country no matter how disgusted we feel with current politicians and our government. We are free to express ourselves.
What we need to consider is any religious order that denies that free speech and looks to take over the world...and we all know who fits that bill in this country....
r.
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Iron Rod
AllTimeJeff, I'm glad that we do have some common ground here. I just get really amazed at people who try to draw a moral equivelancy between Bush and people like Hitler or "Mama AhminaJihad." I personally don't agree, however, that Bush invaded the wrong country when he went into Iraq. Saddam was funding terrorists and training them. (Google Salman Pak for example) Since it is a "war on terror" it seems prudent to have taken out Saddam. I agree with you that the Iranian people themselves seem to be trying to embrace Western culture. Also, as you said in a previous post,they aren't responsible for what their leaders are doing. In my first post, I should have said more accurately "The Iranian government is thumbing it's nose...etc." I also wholeheartedly agree that controversial speech should not be shut down. It should rather continue to be protected. I'm sorry if my comments concerning Amajinadad gave that impression. Once he's here, let him have his say. I just didn't think the University should have issued the invitation in the first place. The guy is a known terrorist. He has been for years. Remember the American hostages held in Iran back in the '70's? Amajinadad was one of the principal characters in that mess.
Anyway,have a good day!
BTW steve2- I really don't even know where to begin with you. So I will just say this:the reason it's a problem for the Iranian government to thumb it's nose at the world regarding their nuclear program is because they regularly threaten to use said nukes on other countries.
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barry
I dont have a problem with the US prison in Cuba. Terrorism is the worst crime imaginable and I dont have a problem with tortureing terrorists either if it gets the correct results and saves lives.
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steve2
BTW steve2- I really don't even know where to begin with you. So I will just say this:the reason it's a problem for the Iranian government to thumb it's nose at the world regarding their nuclear program is because they regularly threaten to use said nukes on other countries.
As far as I know, Iran has never threatened to use nuclear weapons against other states. As recently as last week, the Iranian government was clearly stating that its use of nuclear technology was for energy sources and has cooperated with the UN in allowing inspectors into the country. BTW: Israel has been similarly accused of threatening of suing its nuclear arsenal against other states. Silence from the USA on this because Israel is an extremely wealthy friend.
As for the good US of A: Talk about invading Iraq under false pretences (i.e., claiming to be because of Weapons of Mass Destruction which we now know never existed).
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steve2
I dont have a problem with the US prison in Cuba. Terrorism is the worst crime imaginable and I dont have a problem with tortureing terrorists either if it gets the correct results and saves lives.
The only difference between terrorism and sanctioned military tactics is who assigns the label of an act being either one of terrorism or military might - both extremely loaded terms. Of course terrorist acts are utterly deplorable. But so is invading a country by military might and kiling its citizens who happen to get in the way. The Geneva Convention on treatment of prisoners is followed by all Western countries, except the US. The end justifies the means. Yet again, America preaches a sanitises message of world peace and freedom of speech. However, when it suits its purposes, America clamps down like the blood-curdling hypocrite it is. At least opinion polls show that the American people are begining to see through the fanatical bullying of other countries by their President.
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barry
Steve may I remind you that terrorists dont come under the geneva convention anyway. The geneva convention is for th etreatement of prisoners of war of countries at war.The soldiers taken as prisoners are treated humainly and returned to their contry when hostilities cease. Terrorists do not fight for a country and so there is no time when hostilities cease. Bin laden is reported to have said hostilities will cease at the time of the day of judgement.
The US does have a big interest in the middle east and so it should. The middle east is where most of its oil is scourced. If you think oil isnt important consider this. While the US consumes one third of the worlds oil the US also produces one third of the worlds food. Without this food production many of the contries of the middle east would starve
Steve the Iranian government has said consistently they will wipe out Israel with Atomic weopons. Where do you read youre news stories? Direct from Tehran.