Where does the human conscience come from?

by bluesapphire 23 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    I am on the borderline of becoming atheist/agnostic. But I still can't figure out the human conscience. Since the conscience is innate to only the human animal, how did that evolve?

    And when does it evolve since even little children have a conscience? I don't believe it's a "taught" thing but when does it come into play? At what point in the womb or in childhood does the human animal "get" a conscience?

    I know this is asking for a million different opinions and theories. But that's ok. I just want to know what answers you can come up with since I've been unable to provide an answer for myself.

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    Oops, wrong forum. Now what do I do? CRAP!

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    It is just there. At an early age, during babyhood even, we can see the conscience at work. Ever see a toddler express regret for hurting someone? I have, and it's a touching thing. Babies can express sympathy, too. I remember once when I was crying, my nine-month tried to wipe the tears off my face. I simply couldn't believe it.

    I believe the Biblical account of creation. I realize that some parts of it may have been doctored or tampered with, but I still believe. There is absolutely no other explanation that satisfies our curiosity.

    Sylvia

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    I don't believe in the bible. So pleading its authority doesn't work for me. I found the following very interesting.

    http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheistsmorals/a/EvolutionMorals.htm :

    "The fact that our moral standards have clearly developed over recorded history is a further argument for the idea that morality is a product of human social evolution and not divine fiat. If our conscience was created by God, then why does the human conscience say different things today than it did several thousand years ago? A number of moral standards are different today than they were 100 years ago and many more a different than they were 1000 years ago.

    Personally, I think that that is a good thing. We merely need to look at the biblical teachings on matters like slavery, war, and the treatment of women. Do we still follow those teachings? No. Have we changed and moved away from those teachings? Yes — and we're all better off for it. Minorities have equal rights in politics, society, and business. People of different races can marry. Jews can live wherever they want. Women aren’t forced to remain in the home. Human moral standards have evolved because human moral standards are originally products of evolution."

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    I would suggest reading Plato's story "The Ring of Gyges".

    Essentially it states that a conscience is only the result of fear of unpleasant consequences of our actions. The ring was found by a poor fellow that granted him invisibility. While he started off using the ring for his own amusement, he quickly realized that there was no consequences for his actions. He reasoned that with power he could have anything. He ends up killing the king, raping the queen and seizing power for his own.

    It follows the rule that a conscience is a social construct based on codependence. If you had limitless power, and were immortal, why would you play by the rules? Would you remain a poor pauper in the streets when you had the power to topple kings and kingdoms? If so, why?

    Plato's assertion was that there is no person of strong enough justice that could resist the temptation to wield power over all his fellow man but remain in subjection to the social rules.

    It's a very interesting theoretical exercise. What is it that keeps you from fulfilling all your selfish desires? Is is a desire to please a God, is it to avoid rebuke or consequences. If all those factors were removed, what would remain to prevent you from taking whatever you want?

    The reason we have a conscience is because we need to coexist. That is why I feel people create "Gods". That places even the most powerful humans under the authority of someone else as a means to enforce compliance with the social norm.

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    That's essentially what atheists believe the conscience stems from: the need to co-exist. But what causes a person who is non-theistic to do the right thing even when no one else is looking or when no one would get hurt if they did the "wrong" thing?

    Essentially it states that a conscience is only the result of fear of unpleasant consequences of our actions.

    Sometimes people do the "right" thing even when there would be no consequence to doing the "wrong" thing.

    I'm trying to develop a belief as to when this "conscience" begins. Since it's evident in early childhood, is a child born with it? Is it there when the child is in the womb? If not, where did they "get" it from? Is it social conditioning?

  • Maddie
    Maddie

    I have had this discussion with an evolutionist who believes that conscience has evolved for the perpetuation of the human species i.e. to enable us to live together without totally wiping eachother out.

    Sociologists view is that as soon as a child is born it begins the conditioning process of "what to do and what not to do".

    Maddie

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    Take a look at a child that isn't disciplined. The words "spoiled brat" come to mind.

    They take toys from other kids, hit children and throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way until one of the parents cave. If the parents don't teach basic values, the child will likely learn from negative social experiences:

    Parents stop letting their children play with him
    The child meets another child that treats him the same way
    Other people surrounding the child start to treat him harshly.

    We learn via empathy. It is mere social conditioning. Remove the above factors. Imagine the child cannot be hurt so he never learns what it feels like to be struck. Imagine parents continue to make their kids play with him and to cater to his habits.

    When will the child develop a conscience? Simply, he won't. A conscience needs to be learned, without teaching or life experience, examples show people grow up lacking basic empathy for others.

    edit: we are socially conditioned to praise and reward children for good behavior and scold for bad behavior. This is the start of a conscience.

  • MadTiger
    MadTiger

    It is innate.

    We will use your actions as an example:

    When you realized you made a small breach of group etiquette, you apologized. Why? Because you felt bad. Not kill yourself bad, but you were "conscious" of your minor transgression.

    It is the same in life, except for the Moderator implants the LifeForum FAQ in our minds and hearts.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    An interesting question.

    First off, I'm not so sure conscience is solely human. Those who have dogs or cats for pets, know that they can sometimes look really guilty when they've done something they know they weren't supposed to (something they've been yelled at for doing before).

    In humans, I'm not so sure conscience is the locked, metaphysical phenomenon some people seem to think it is. Even religious (maybe especially religious) people agree that our conscience is something that needs to be trained if it is to be effective. In other words, to have an "efficient" conscience, we need to learn what things are OK and what things are not. This to me indicates that 'conscience' is not some special part of our brain, or our 'soul', but is simply something learned through experience, and will work differently from human to human dependent on the ethical/moral values we have fed our brain.

    Conscience is however not a process of using logic and thinking in order to reach a conclusion, but is more like a quick reflex, almost literally a gut feeling happening in an instant. But I think it is still learned, in that we have these notions stored in the back of our brains, and when we come to a situation that goes against what we've been taught, it triggers a response dependent on that.

    As for how conscience evolved in the first place, I first of all don't think it necessarily did at all, but may simply be an automatic cause of intelligence and memory (we weigh a new situation up against what we've experienced before, or have been taught before, but do it subconsciously so that it seems like a reflex).

    -If it is indeed a trait that evolved, it could be said that in a society, it may be an advantage because you'd be better liked if you showed others that you have a conscience and are a better person toward others because of it. OK - that's a little weak for an explanation; let's go a little further back:

    What we now know as 'conscience' may have started out as a different emotion, which directly would be beneficial for survival. Kinda like how we learn that if we've been burnt once, we make sure not to make the same mistake again; at least try a little different approach. That notion may have evolved into a more ethically driven emotion; "I stole from Ugh, but now I remember how angry and sad I got when Ugh stole from me - I must have made him feel the same now as he made me feel then. I now wish I hadn't stolen from Ugh." - - or - - "My mother told me that lying was wrong because it may mislead other people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do - - and now I lied anyway, and said there were lots of prey just over that mountain, just so I could keep them away from the flock of prey I recently discovered close to here. Now they may die on that mountain without finding any prey, and I regret having lied because of it, and having done something my mother warned me against."

    This notion, this emotion when applied to a small society, may have made them close knit compared to another small society that had no such notions, and so the society with a 'conscience' may have had an advantage because of it. They may have stood more united than the other society/tribe when faced with trouble.

    Something along those lines.

    Small children learn very fast. If they do something that results in an angry outburst from a parent, it will instill fear in them, and they will understand that doing what they were about to do or did, is 'bad'. Still - curiosity or desire to have/do something may be strong enough that they do it again later - and if they are then caught, they know they are doing something their parents do not approve of, and their conscience - or perhaps fear of retribution at this point - make them feel remorse.

    Think of all the things you would have a bad conscience about doing while you were a JW, but you would now do with no bad feelings. 'Conscience' is not a 'thing' as such in my opinion, but a 'pliable' emotion driven by past experiences and what we are taught.

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