by FreedomFrog 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Freedom Frog,
I'm with you on the "it's just a winter celebration" idea.
Is Christmas pagan or Christian? While the question was aimed at the origin, I say it is now neither. It has become almost wholly secular. That's why it is observed in so many regions outside of Christendom.
I'll never forget the first time I decided to put up some seasonal decorations in the fall of 1994. I bought a bundle of colourful "indian corn", a few interesting-shaped and colourful gourds, a bale of hay and some brown and yellow ribbon at the craft store. I put a nice big bow on the corn and put it on the front door, and set the bale of hay on the deck near the door and placed the gourds on top. No pumpkins, no witches, no ghosts, no black cats, no skeletons, no zombies, no werewolves, no vampires.
In less than 24 hours, we got a call from the elders wanting information about our HALLOWEEN decorations. We invited them over to look at it, and asked them if there was anything associated with HALLOWEEN in our decorations. I even kept the receipt from the craft store to show that there were no other bonafide HALLOWEEN items. I asked them what on earth was wrong with the decorations - it was just a simple seasonal display. Then I asked them what the hell was wrong with them for allowing a busybody to wreak havoc in our personal business and try to stir up trouble for us unnecessarily. They left with their tails between their legs.
When December came along, I decided to decorate with snowmen and snowflakes and big pine cones. The same small minded idiot JW complained again, and the same elders called to investigate, and again I told them in no uncertain terms to mind their own business, because I was not doing anything wrong.
I'll never forget the first time I decided to put up some seasonal decorations in the fall of 1994. I bought a bundle of colourful "indian corn", a few interesting-shaped and colourful gourds, a bale of hay and some brown and yellow ribbon at the craft store. I put a nice big bow on the corn and put it on the front door, and set the bale of hay on the deck near the door and placed the gourds on top. No pumpkins, no witches, no ghosts, no black cats, no skeletons, no zombies, no werewolves, no vampires.
In less than 24 hours , we got a call from the elders wanting information about our HALLOWEEN decorations. We invited them over to look at it, and asked them if there was anything associated with HALLOWEEN in our decorations. I even kept the receipt from the craft store to show that there were no other bonafide HALLOWEEN items. I asked them what on earth was wrong with the decorations - it was just a simple seasonal display. Then I asked them what the hell was wrong with them for allowing a busybody to wreak havoc in our personal business and try to stir up trouble for us unnecessarily. They left with their tails between their legs.
When December came along, I decided to decorate with snowmen and snowflakes and big pine cones. The same small minded idiot JW complained again, and the same elders called to investigate, and again I told them in no uncertain terms to mind their own business, because I was not doing anything wrong.
Another good idea would be that, since they are creating a problem where none needed to exist, to tell them that if they continue hounding you about Halloween decorations (all the above items are fall related, not Halloween) or Christmas (again, all the items were winter seasonal and not Christmas), that you would give them something to gripe about. If they cannot handle corn, hay, and gourds, maybe next time it will be witches, ghosts, goblins, giant spider webs, and skeletons. If they cannot handle pine cones and snowflakes, next time it will be crosses, Santa Clauses, lit Christmas tree with a lit star or angel on top, stars, angels, and jingle bells.
That way, if they persist in not minding their own business, they only get it double. And, since it is direct payback for not minding their own business, you can always claim that they stumbled you by not minding their own business (further payback for the "stumbling" that they claim you did to others with exercising free will; see the Comments You Will Not Hear in this week's installment on Divine Justice).
Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be convinced in his own mind." (to Roman ie pagan converts.)
Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you ... with regard to a RELIGIOUS FESTIVAL, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
The Jews did not celebrate the New moon, so here Paul cannot be talking exclusively to Jews.
"He who regards one day as special does so to the Lord."
"He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah." In other words they had been washed clean and sanctified, and any observances were no longer to other Gods. (read the whole chapters!)
Of course the Witless will be the first to accuse you of quoting out of context, (HAHAHAHAHA) yet the whole thrust of Colossians is to MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND and do what you have decided, not to be enslaved to other judgmental fools.
HB
Hi,
In the history of the Witlesses which came first the banning of Christmas or banning of birthdays? If it was birthdays it follows that Rutherford would have to put a ban on christmas.It would be interesting to find a different angle to his motives.
As for celebrating the birthday of Jesus I think that if on Dec.25 I bowed down three times to the sun that would be pagan but if I pin up a few streamers, bells, and bows and went to our local church and sang a few hymns ,said a few prayers to Jesus and was pleased that he came into the world to set a good example to all the evil doers that would not be pagan.It all depends on motive.On 25 Dec.if I worship in a church that is built on a temple site that was used to worship the sun I rejoice that good as overcome ignorance.
I know of a Kingdumb Hall that used to be a brewery and supplied beer to all the local alcoholics ( they supplied beer to the rest of us as well) so does that make it an evil place to visit.The answer is obviously no the K.H is an evil place to visit because of the stupid information that is taught therein.
A celebration of a birth ?, for some twisted reasoning the Witlesses think that death is to be acknowledged i.e.funeral at the hall but they can't bring themselves to have a formal happy gathering to acknowledge a babys birth.How barmy is that? I guess that reflects their humanity.
Edmond, half way up his step ladder with fairy lights.
Christmas is originally a pagan celebration of what used to be Yule and the Winter Solstice - in mythology it is where the sun god is reborn to begin life again. (Note the distinct similarities).
A great book to read on modern customs and their pagan origins is Ronald Huttons, Stations of the Sun - its quite in depth and scholarly but a fantastic read nonetheless. Ive given a link to the online searchable version.
Hope you find it useful!
G /|\
Ok, I went to bible gateway and read the whole chapter.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=14&version=31
two men, one with strong faith, one with weaker faith.
Interesting to note, it is the one picking and choosing who has the weaker faith.
I have loved and lost, and been hurt by love unrequited, and used to find certain songs associated with these lost loves too painful to endure.
But when my Beck came and saved me, and wiped away all the hurt from my heart left by cheating lying previous 'loves' revealing them to be mere shadows of the love I then held, none of the old songs had any power anymore.
Sister Golden Hair Surprise was no longer about Cheryl, it was now about Becky.
When Donna Lewis sings 'I love you, always forever' Anita was gone, replaced by Becky.
(although Everclear's 'everything to everyone' is still very much Anita, poor silly thing that she was)
Del Amitri's Roll to me, was no longer about Tracy, it was about Becky.
My new Love wiped out the old associations, and I could now listen to a song I had listened to and thought longingly of another woman, and not have her come to mind anymore. Beck felt no disrespect, even though she knows what it used to mean to me.
If I were listening to those songs and still indulging in romantic thoughts of the women they originally honored in my heart before Beck, it would be a disrespect to Beck.
My love, like the one man's faith, is strong.
But another, might find a love like that, but not find it enough to wipe out ALL old associations, as if I had said, 'Beck, my love is strong enough to wipe out roll to me, and sister golden hair surprise, bit It's just not strong enough to erase the hurt of Donna Lewis.
Love, Faith. Faith, love.
One man's faith is strong enough to observe his old celebrations 'to the lord' and this is fine.
Another man has faith, but is unable to observe the old holy days without thought of good ol' mithra or tammuz, so he abstains, and this too is fine.
But the guy who has no problem putting up a tree should have enough love for his brother who avoids doing so to not drag him in on it.
Like weddings and such, origins no longer matter.
Conscience and faith matter. Love matters.
Christ matters.
I have to ponder what this means for me personally.
Thank you for this food for thought.
RD
Who cares? I mean really!
Ask yourself, what harm does it do? What good does it do? Does it bring families together?
Does it promote love? What are your personal feelings about a festivity?
Thats how I deal with holidays now.
I dont celebrate easter at all. Thats just me.
I dont celebrate Mardi Gras.
I dont do fathers day or mothers day mainly because I do not have either anymore.
I did a couple of personal birthdays, but I think I will drop my b-day just because I really dont like celebrating it like I thought I would.
To me, Christmas is about friends, families and the poor and getting together and exchanging love and making sure each is fed and fat during the cold winter months. God gave us Christ out of love, so we honor that great gift by giving to each other and being generous like Him. I know that sounds retardo simplistic but I think thats about as much thought as most give it.
I try NOT TO OVER-THINK things anymore like the JWs do. They have over-thought themselves into one hell of a weird no fun organization!
If God isnt stopping the wars and death going on I dont think he is too miffed about a little old christmas tree. I say enjoy your life and celebrate good times with friends!
Anewme
Christmas definitely has pagan origins but who cares about it nowadays, it is a moot point. The JWs think that it is unwholesome but it isn't since it was totally integrated in the Christian culture and tradition.
It would be wrong if celebrating Christmas was celebrating pagan gods which obviously isn't the case. Only the neurotic JWs associate it with paganism.
Just because something started out as a pagan ritual, doesn't mean that its pagan origin enters our realm of meaning, value or thinking now.
Yeah, I agree. I remember doing research to an extensive point trying to show my parents that many things came from pagan even with the things they used. Of course they would say "yeah, but it doesn't mean that anymore today, so it's different".
The winter holidays are coming up and I know I will probably start hearing from my mom. They haven't called in over 7 months but I'm sure they will soon. I'm trying to research everything I had and hopefully a bit more to be prepared. I've thought about DA myself and get it over with but I also don't feel compelled to go along with "their" rules.
