It's that time of year again

Seven

[quote]8 There were also in that same country shepherds living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks. 9 And suddenly Jehovah's angel stood by them, and Jehovah's glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. 10 But the angel said to them: "Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have. 11 because there was born to you today a Savior who is Christ[the]Lord, in David's city. 12 And this is a sign for you: you will find an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger." 13 And suddenly there came to be with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying: 14 "Glory in the heights above to God and upon earth peace among men of good will."
* http://www.letusreason.org/JW10.htm

Frenchy

Interesting line of reasoning--both then and now. What do you suppose was the deciding factor in final version?

-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

waiting

Hey Seven,

Thanks for the various clicks you give. It sure does make interesting reading.

In reference to birthdays, you gave me this site for consideration: http://www.gtaea.org/pubs/Birthdays.htm

Historical evidence firmly proves that birthday celebrations among rulers were universally used as a time for magnanimity; for generosity—even for the release of prisoners (as in the case of the butler, and, later, Joseph), rather than as a time for death, or murder.
If the strongest "proof" that birthday celebration is "wrong" is the argument that a death took place on that day—then WHY DO CHRISTIANS OBSERVE THE PASSOVER—The "LORD'S SUPPER"—THE OCCASION OF CHRIST'S DEATH?
The "Birthday" of Jesus Christ
The "greatest" Christian holiday is "Christmas," which allegedly celebrates the birthday of Jesus Christ. The real truth about Christmas will SHOCK YOU. It long antedates Christianity; the origin of all its accoutrements and trappings, including Santa Claus, reindeer, the yule log, the holly wreath, Christmas trees and ornaments are entirely pagan. For years, God's church has shown the world the real truth about God's annual Holy Days as opposed to the purely pagan days revered by the Christian-professing world such as Christmas, Easter, St. Valentine's Day, New Year's and others.
Could it be, however, in the sincere and zealous attempt to prove the pagan origins of Christmas that some have, unintentionally, tended to minimize the greatness of the EVENT of Christ's birth?
Remember, Christ had a "birthday"! That is, there was a day on which Christ was born!
Can anyone read the Bible accounts without coming to the realization that this was a STUPENDOUS event in heaven and on earth? Perhaps too many have glossed over these portions of Scripture, turning from them with the barest reading and little appreciation, because of oft-repeated maudlin sentimentality connected with the commercialized "Christmas season."
Read Matthew's first two chapters; Luke's first two chapters; and the many prophecies concerning the birth of Jesus Christ!
The Bible shows myriad’s of angels rejoicing in heaven, shouting out their joyous announcement that the Savior of all mankind was born! They said, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace among men of good will" (as the original should read) (Luke 2:14).
God caused the Magi, perhaps representative of a mystic sect of Persia (some speculate they were students of Zoroaster) to come and do obeisance before the babe, Jesus Christ, perhaps thus symbolizing that all classes, all peoples, all races, and even the religions of this world had to acknowledge that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was truly the very Son of God!
There is still a good bit of mystery surrounding the purpose of the visit of the Magi, but it is obvious that whoever they were they came a long distance to acknowledge Jesus as King!
Think of it! Mary was informed by a great angel she would become the mother of Jesus Christ. Zecharias' dumbness, the "magnificat of Mary," the rejoicing of the angels, the visit of the Magi (there may have been 12, 20 or more than 100—the Bible does not specify three), the visit of the shepherds, plus rejoicing in heaven above, all give testimony to the greatness of the EVENT of Christ's birth!
Even though the exact date of Jesus' birth is carefully obscured, two of the Gospel writers go into great detail about the utter magnificence of the EVENT! Let's face it: The fact of the birth of your Savior is one of the most important central facts for your eternal life! For, if Jesus Christ had not come into the flesh as a human being, born of the virgin Mary in a manger in Bethlehem, you would have NO SAVIOR!
God nowhere commands us to celebrate the date of Jesus' birth! Rather, the Bible is silent on this point.
Certainly, however, the Bible gives us the picture of great rejoicing in heaven; the details of the angelic announcement to Mary; the visit of the Magi and the shepherds in order that we can profoundly rejoice in, and appreciate the fact of, Jesus' birth—the momentous event in history when VERY CREATOR GOD life was born as HUMAN life! Surely this will always be the GREATEST "day of birth," or "birthday," IN ALL HISTORY
Is it wrong to celebrate birth? Is it wrong to celebrate LIFE? What about the birth of a future KING? What about the birth of the future KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS?
One thing is sure. The angels greatly rejoiced!
Notice! "And the angel said unto them, 'Fear not: for, behold, I bring you GOOD TIDINGS Of GREAT JOY, which shall be to ALL PEOPLE.
"'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.'
"And suddenly there was with the angel A MULTITUDE OF THE HEAVENLY HOST, praising God, and saying, GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST, AND ON EARTH, PEACE, GOOD WILL TOWARD MEN [among men of good will: margin]" (Luke 2:10-14).
Obviously, the angelic hosts in God's own heaven were rejoicing—celebrating—this greatest of all human births.
Does this imply Christians should have large, lavish "birthday parties"? Of course not! It does not relate at all to human practices and customs. The Bible neither enjoins birthday celebrations upon Christians, NOR does it condemn them!
There is no such thing as even a veiled reference to Jesus Christ condemning social and cultural customs such as certain banquets and festivals on important occasions. Rather, the first miracle of Jesus is performed in the context of supplying additional wine for a great "wedding feast" at Cana, in Galilee!
Jesus, by His presence at this feast (it may well have been the marriage of a close family member, and Mary may have been involved in its preparation), distinctly shows it is perfectly acceptable for Christians to take part in such social customs.
Surely it is not wrong to give gifts! No Christian believes it "wrong" to give a gift to his or her children, husband or wife, loved ones or friends, or, for that matter, completely unknown poor people.
The occasions for such gift—giving? Perhaps one of God's annual Holy Days, such as the Feast of Tabernacles (a good time to give your children a gift!). Perhaps at the beginning of school; on one's anniversary, at a wedding or a baby shower, a "going-away" present, or when one moves into a new home.
WHY, if all of these occasions are perfectly "right" and "Christian" occasions to give a gift, is it taboo, and viewed by some as a SIN, to give your child a gift on the anniversary of a certain number of years of life?
As we have explained for years, the wise men, when arriving at the bedside of Jesus Christ, gave to Christ their gifts! Simply because there were three categories of gifts given—frankincense, gold and myrrh—many have assumed there were only three wise men. Not so. There may have been many more than that, or there could have been only two.
However, it is obvious they gave gifts OF GREAT value! One could argue until he is blue in the face that these were "Persians," and therefore pagan! They may even try to distort and twist the Bible to the point they deny that the family of Jesus used the valuable gifts for His clothing, education or their own personal needs.
But this would, in fact, be twisting and wresting of the Scriptures—would be utter nonsense—and would deliberately ignore the FACT that on the occasion (it could easily have been one year after His birth) of Jesus' birth, gifts of great value were given!
There is a familiar argument that, since Jesus was a KING, and since it is "custom" never to appear in the presence of a king without a gift, the Magi brought gifts!
However, this is not merely a casual visit to a king at any month, during any season, or on any day. It was the fact and occasion of His birth! No amount of reasoning can do away with the fact that these gifts were BIRTHDAY GIFTS! bold added

I've been wondering - why did the angels announce to the shepherds the birth of the Christ if they didn't want that birth celebrated? They had to know the tendency of humans to keep dates. Would that have constituted a "stumbling" to mankind by the angels to lure them into commemorating Jesus's birth? The angels were perfect and they were celebrating the birth of our Savior.

Call it what you want - but the angels came from heaven to earth, in their glory, to announce the birth of Jesus. They led the shepherds to the birthplace. Why? So that the shepherds could share in the joy of Jesus' birth. Were the shepherds told not to remember or speak of this birth? No. Were they told not to commemorate Jesus birth? No.

I don't pretend to be able to explain the magi. This article has some interesting points, however. Never considered there might be two, three, a hundred magi. Also never considered that the angels announced "GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST, AND ON EARTH, PEACE, GOOD WILL TOWARD MEN [among men of good will: margin]" (Luke 2:10-14). Which would mean non-jews also.

Something else about Herod: The jews were considered as contemptuous slaves - life and death in his hands. He did not want a "Savior", a rebellion leader to rise amongst the ranks of his slaves. He did dispicably kill all baby boys. As king, he took that right.

The Egyptian Pharoh did the same thing at the time of Moses's birth. They were his slaves. He wanted to control size of his slave population. As king, he took that right.

The king of Egypt wanted to keep all the Jews in Egypt when Moses was grown. Jehovah killed all the Egyptian firstborn as a lesson. As God, he took that right.

Herod was an imperfect man, a pagan. Pharoh was an imperfect man, a pagan. God is perfectly good, non-denominational, btw. Interesting, the parallels of killing young boys by kings who exercise their kingly rights.

Thanks again, Seven.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 9 December 2000 10:57:19

Carmel

Camels and goats all were standing in concentric circles, with the lambies inside all awe inspired! Tinker bell angels all dancing in a row, bundles of myrth and nincompoop laid at the base of the manger, and little lambsey divey couldn'teativytoo!

bah hum bug!

I'm outa here! See ya'll next year!

carmeled candy

waiting

Hey Carmel,

Are you hittin' that old pita bread & peanut butter again? What're ya washin' it down with? Do they have "home brew" over yonder?

"dem dam wabbits ar thumpin' gin'."

waiting

Seven

Thank you waitingfor posting the highlights of the article on the birth of Jesus. The bible does not condemn the celebration of birthdays. Nor do I think Jehovah God would frown upon us celebrating the greatest birthday of all time. I have plans to celebrate this year
for the first time in a decade. If all of heaven could stop and rejoice then my string of midget lights and smoked ham should offend no one.

waiting

Hey Seven,

If all of heaven could stop and rejoice then my string of midget lights and smoked ham should offend no one.

Oh, if a jw comes over, the midget lights will probably raise offended eyebrows. But they'll enjoy the ham. You got to eat, don'tcha? (the old turkey on Thanksgiving argument)

But your right - if angels can come from way up in heaven to way down here on earth to announce Jesus' birth - even celebrate it - "should offend no one."

Enjoy yourself and celebrate. Gain a couple of pounds - I'll feel better about that!

waiting

larc

Waiting,

I mentioned my cousin on the humor page. He served in WWII, and definitely was not a believer like his mother or his sister. Even so, he gave up Christmas for his children so as not to offend his mother. He advised me against doing the same. The first year I put up a tree and had Christmas Carols on the hi-fi, the brothers came to the door to invite me back to the Kingdom Hall. They could see and hear everything.

Well, they waited til spring to send the registered letter for me to sign for my upcoming disfellowshipment. My wife, who is more quick witted than I, told me not to sign for it. By the time they figured out what to next we had moved out of town, not because of them but because of my job.

I don't care if Christmas is Christian or of Pagan origin, it is a time of love and renewal for my family and I love it.

God is love and so is Christmas if done properly.

DriveslikeJehu

Hey Seven, what do you need the lights for? Just chow down on some ham!

Seven

Hey Drives, Can't wait for that ham! I ordered it from a local
smokehouse. It's not too salty-just right.

It's that time of year again

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