On STUMBLING BLOCKS

by You Know 56 Replies latest jw friends

You Know

ah, the famous fallback for all jws when presented with obvious contradictions within the religion; when presented with fallicies in prophesy; when presented with doctrine changes, etc.........the fallback is ALWAYS that no human is perfect, and no human organization is perfect

You missed the point. A person's faith should not henge upon the success or failure of his religion. Jehovah has never let me down. I am well aware of the shortcomings of my religion, no doubt more so than you. I am loyal to my brothers and the Society because they are striving to serve my God. If at some point they give convincing evidence to me that they are not endeavoring to follow Christ then I will consider looking elsewhere for associates. As it stands though, my faith and knowledge of the truth transcends the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Inc.
no one is saying "if this is gods organization, it should be PERFECT". i havent heard one "apostate" or non-believer say anything even remotely close to this. yk, you continue to show your foolishness.
No, of course apostates aren't going to say that, you are much too cunning. But, the unspoken attitude that exists in innocent ones, which predatory apostates seek to exploit, is that there is this trusting assumption that the WT can do no wrong. If that were not the case, then why the obsession with the Watchtower's every mis-step? For example, why should I care if the Watchtower is an NGO? Does it affect me personally? If so please expalin how my faith is affected by what a hanful of Brothers at Brooklyn do. Are they asking me to compromise my faith by saluting the olive-leafed blue ensign of the UN? No, not yet any way. LOL! So, that's just an example of how an apostate seeks to create indignation and scandal by exploiting things like that. Basically, you can't be happy until you have caused some poor soul to run his ship on the rocks like you have.
what we will ask is this: if gods holy spirit works directly through the fds, and the teachings/writings of the wtbts are "inspired" in this way, why would god ever have the need to supply his one true outlet/organization with completely FALSE information, and give them completely OPPPOSITE insight on SPECIFIC doctrinal roots from one decade to the next?
That's a very baited question. As I pointed out from the Scriptures, God does allow stumbling blocks among his people. So your baited challenge has no validity. It is all apart of God shutting Satan's mouth. After all, the hardest test of faith comes from within the organization. The Nazis couldn't break us. The Roman arena couldn't break us, but apostasy from within has probably been the Devil's most sucessful attack. So Jehovah allows his people to be exposed to it in order to refine and cleanse his loyal ones.
The thing faithless ones overlook is that the Watchtower has taught us quite a bit about the truth. You wouldn't even have a clue about which end of your Bible was up if it had not been for your association with Jehovah's Witnesses. Now though apostates pretend that they are somehow experts on matters related to faith. What hypocrisy. You have never dealt with faithfulness. You have cracked at the first test. And now you are going to enlighten me? What a joke. The Watchtower has given each one of us a basis to establish a genuine relationship with Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. I for one have taken advantage of their tuteluge and have recieved Jehovah's blessing in such measure so as to be beyond recounting. The Society have been like parents who train their children to face the harsh world in hopes that their offspring will grow up into responsible adults. They have succeeded in "rearing" millions of spiritually strong men and women. That cannot be denied. If that were not the case then people like me would not exist. Fact of the matter is, Satan cannot break the faith of Jehovah's loyal ones, even those like myself who have been exposed to the many stumbling blocks that have upended many. There is in fact NOTHING that you can throw at me that I cannot answer with either God's word or my faith. I have been on this theatrical stage for many years now and I have faced every challenge presented to my faith. In that respect I trust that I am fairly representative of all the body of Christ. / You Know
willy_think

Jesus told all his disciples that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Yet some were stumbled and left off following him and others weren’t. If you recall the instance, Jesus made no attempt to reclaim by clarification those who feigned shock and disgust, but instead turned to his handful of faithful apostles

that's right, he told them to eat his flesh and drink his blood.it was not symbolic. so no clarification was needed. it was understood. some would not eat, some would eat.
again i ask you why not one of the "faiths" that eat?
why have you stumbled?
There is in fact NOTHING that you can throw at me that I cannot answer with either God's word or my faith
then answer.
You Know

that's right, he told them to eat his flesh and drink his blood.it was not symbolic. so no clarification was needed. it was understood. some would not eat, some would eat.

You are missing the point. Some of Jesus' disciples were shocked and refused to follow him any longer because they were stumbled, apparently foolishly imagining that Jesus was advocating canabalism or literal blood drinking. There is nothing in the account that says that Jesus apostles necessarily understood what Jesus was talking about though, they had simply seen enough to convince them that he was the Messiah, so it didn't matter to them that Jesus said such a shocking thing. They had faith that there must have been a reasonable explanation for it even though at the time they didn't know what he meant. Remember, even up until Jesus was executed the apostles simply could not grasp that Jesus was going to die. Their conception of the Messiah was that he would take over the kingdom of David in Jerusalem right then and there. That's why Peter told Jesus that he was mistaken that he would not have that fate at all. Jesus rebuked him and told him that he didn't think God's thoughts. So, there is no way the apostles understood what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood as you imagine. It was a potential stumbling block that they stepped over. / You Know
TR

YK,
The thing faithless ones overlook is that the Watchtower has taught us quite a bit about the truth. You wouldn't even have a clue about which end of your Bible was up if it had not been for your association with Jehovah's Witnesses.
This is the crux of the whole matter, YK. What real 'truth' has the WTS taught. With all the back and forth phony doctrines that God supposedly handed down to the WTS, how could one possibly rely on the WTS for truth. If one's faith is based on God and Christ and the bible, why does one need the WTS? They are an unnecessary middleman. I'm sure that some XJW's have moved on to a better source of spirituality without the hinderance of the WTS. Cannot this be so?
As for me, well, at this point I prefer to do more research to find out how valid the bible really is at all. It could be nothing more than a different version of far more ancient stories.
TR
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
—Edmund Burke
dubla

yk-
you have, as usual, left your post open for an easy dismantling.
For example, why should I care if the Watchtower is an NGO?
i guess that depends on whether or not you want to be known as being part of a hypocratic organization, doesnt it?
What hypocrisy
exactly
So your baited challenge has no validity.
i love how every time a question is posed that you cannot field, it suddendly gets labeled "baited". my question was not baited, it was simply extremely valid, and you dodged it as usual.
There is in fact NOTHING that you can throw at me that I cannot answer with either God's word or my faith.
i just proved that statement wrong. i threw a question at you that you cannot answer without putting your foot in your mouth. you cannot answer it, and you get around that fact by saying that you will not answer it, due to its lack of "validity".
What a joke.
i agree. LOL
aa
You Know

This is the crux of the whole matter, YK. What real 'truth' has the WTS taught.

Every apostate used to be a minister that carried his Bible and went door to door teaching others about his faith. Were you such an easy mark back for the Watchtower then, or rather is it the case that you have simply been completely defrauded of your faith by apostasy now? Either way it doesn't speak well of your intelligence.
With all the back and forth phony doctrines that God supposedly handed down to the WTS, how could one possibly rely on the WTS for truth.
What phony doctrines are you referring to? The one about Jehovah being God? Christ being his Firstborn Son who is going to rule the earth in his kingdom. God's pupose to rid the earth of evil and rehabilitate mankind from the sin's debilitating effects? I well know that you are just going to recite what has been handed you by Ray Franz and his disciples. "Pyramids...inocculation pus...1975...this generation...blah blah blah blah."
If one's faith is based on God and Christ and the bible, why does one need the WTS?
All one has to do is look at the spiritual morass of those in Christendom to appreciate why God made the provision for a faithful slave to oversee the going on in his household of servants.
They are an unnecessary middleman. I'm sure that some XJW's have moved on to a better source of spirituality without the hinderance of the WTS. Cannot this be so?
What might that be? There are plenty of apostates that claim to still be Christians that post on this board yet they have nothing. Nothing that could hold up to the kind of intense scrutiny as our faith anyway.
As for me, well, at this point I prefer to do more research to find out how valid the bible really is at all.
That's good, yet be reminded that one of the characteristics of those who have been taken in by apostate con men is that they are "always learning yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth." / You Know
willy_think

Some of Jesus' disciples were shocked and refused to follow him any longer , apparently foolishly imagining that Jesus was advocating canabalism or literal blood drinking.

thay were not foolish. what is foolish is to teach what the diciples were "imagining". going way beyond what is in scripture.
what was so shocking? was it that the diciples that satayed were "apparently" eating his flesh? he says water is wine and it is. he says the dead are living and thay are. he says the blind see and thay do. he says the lame walk and thay do. he says eat this it is my body and it is. jesus said you must eat of my flesh. must you? you must.
when jesus was NOT understood, the crist "rebuked" when he was understood he(jesus) moved on to his next teaching. and he moved on.
but my questions are:
"since God most assuredly did not let his worshipper down"
then why arn't you orthodox or catholic?
why one of the new "faiths"
why not one of the "faiths" that eat?
why have you stumbled?
4 questions i would like to know the answers to
hillary_step

Hi You Know,
Hope that you are well. You present an interesting argument.
I have to admit that in the late 70's when I began to notice sinister developments in the theology and modus operandi of the WTS my first inclination, in an attempt to defend its exclusivity, was to develop a pattern of reasoning such as your own.
Over the years as I realized the prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel etc. could only be linked beyond the C1st by personal interpretation I developed a partial-preterist view of the apocalyptic sections on Matthew, Luke and Revelation, ( which I am convinced was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem ) to which I still hold.
You see, YK, the problem is that yet again we are being assailed by a personal interpretation of these prophecies. Your guess is a good as another persons. You may be correct in your interpretation and so may they, or you both may be wrong, and this is where the fundamental flaw lies.
It would be wonderful to believe in the WTS prophetic package, many of us have basked triumphantly in it in the past and the package is second to none in its concept, but as you have noted it is fatally flawed. Who should be asked to drive along a bridge with compromised foundations?
As to your own position, there is no doubt about it YK, every post you make seems to move you further in your thinking from the WTS theology and into the no-mans land than many of us have traveled before.
As I noted before, if you wish to take the scenic route to Apostate City rather than the direct route that is your choice, the fact is though, that you are half-way there whether the battles of cognitive-dissonance allow you such conclusions or not.
When you arrive, try the Preterist Hotel, I will book you a room if you so wish!
Kind regards - HS
You Know

you have, as usual, left your post open for an easy dismantling

You have got to be kidding?
i guess that depends on whether or not you want to be known as being part of a hypocratic organization, doesnt it?
Not so quick. Expain to me exactly how this affects me? If Jehovah judges those brothers to be hypocritical that still does not mean that all of Jehovah's Witnesses are responsible. Jehovah judges each individual based upon what we do. You give evidence that you simply don't know God.
i love how every time a question is posed that you cannot field, it suddendly gets labeled "baited". my question was not baited, it was simply extremely valid, and you dodged it as usual.
I fielded your question. I showed why it was baited and then I answered it. It may well be that you simply lack the intelligence to grasp that fact.
i just proved that statement wrong. i threw a question at you that you cannot answer without putting your foot in your mouth. you cannot answer it
I hate to say it, but I am fairly convinced that you are stupid and lack the ability to recognize when you have been shown to be so, and it seems to be your pattern to make up for you glaring lack by arrogant bluster pronouncing by yourself the winner on nearly every post. Its pathetic really. / You Know
You Know

Hillary's False Step:
As to your own position, there is no doubt about it YK, every post you make seems to move you further in your thinking from the WTS theology and into the no-mans land than many of us have traveled before.
Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I have never been more certain of my faith and that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's organization. I am not wavering in a lack of faith at all. I am simply in front of the organization on some issues. That doesn't make me an apostate. I am well aware that you have no spiritual insights into God's word that could possibly be of value to me. If you had then I am certain that you would share them. As it stands I am bound by the spirit from publishing what I know is true simply because it hasn't appeared in the Watchtower yet. In other words, I have food that you don't have that makes me immune to the very doubts that destroyed your faith. / You Know

On STUMBLING BLOCKS

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