NWT-at it again?

by Iron Rod 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Iron Rod

  I have a question....

  This question is open to everyone, but as you will see, input from JWD's resident scholars ( like Narkissos and Leolaia ) will be essential.

  In the account found in 1 Samuel chapter 28, we read about Sauls infamous visit to the spirit medium of En-Dor. At Sauls request she summons the spirit of Samuel.

  In the NotWellTranslated, the name Samuel is written in quotation marks like this..."Samuel." This, of course, gives the reader the impression that this is not really Samuel. ( And in keeping with Watchtower doctrine, must be a demon posing as Samuel ) So far, I have checked 10 other translations and none of them have the quotation marks.

  So here is my question: Is there anything in the oldest manuscripts, whether the Hebrew words used or sentence structure,etc. to justify the use of these quotation marks? Anything to indicate that the writer wanted the reader to know that this wasn't Samuel, but rather, a demon posing as Samuel? Obviously, thats the impression put forth by the use of these marks.

  I'm thinking that since these marks are not found in at least the 10 other translations that I checked, that this is just one more example of the Society tweaking their Bible to fit their doctrine, instead of tweaking their doctrine to fit the Bible.

  Any thoughts?
• 

  Narkissos

  Is there anything in the oldest manuscripts, whether the Hebrew words used or sentence structure,etc. to justify the use of these quotation marks?

  No.
• 

  Iron Rod

  Wow, that was fast!

  Thanks, Narkissos.

  And once again, your brevity is most powerful!

  "IronRod" Iron Rod
• 

  Narkissos

  I just checked the evangelical NIV Study Bible (which has about the same ideological problems with this text as the WT). The footnote on v. 12 reads:

  "The episode has been understood in many diferent ways, among them the following: 1. God permitted the spirit of Samuel to appear to the woman. 2. The woman had contact with an evil or devilish spirit in the form of Samuel by whom she was deceived and controlled. 3. By using parapsychological powers such as telepathy or clairvoyance, the woman was able to discern Saul's thoughts and picture Samuel in her own mind. Whatever the explanation of this mysterious affair, the medium was used in some way to convey to Saul that the impending battle would bring death..."

  At least they did not tamper with the translation here...
• 

  Iron Rod

  But, but Narkissos....

  That would mean that they were more truthful than the "Fitful and Disgruntled Slave."

  Say it ain't so!
• 

  writetoknow

  The question marks are the hebrew words but this format would not allow them I don't know why?

  1 Samuel Chapter 28
  ? ???????, ?????????? ?????, ????????????? ???????????? ???-?????????? ????????, ?????????? ?????????????; ????????? ???????, ???-??????, ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????????, ?????? ????????????. 1 And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their hosts together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David: 'Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me in the host, thou and thy men.'
  ? ????????? ??????, ???-???????, ????? ?????? ?????, ??? ??????-???????? ?????????; ????????? ???????, ???-??????, ????? ?????? ????????? ??????????, ????-?????????. {?} 2 And David said to Achish: 'Therefore thou shalt know what thy servant will do.' And Achish said to David: 'Therefore will I make thee keeper of my head for ever.' {P}
  ? ??????????? ???--?????????????-??? ????-??????????, ??????????????? ??????? ??????????; ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????-??????????????--?????????. 3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that divined by a ghost or a familiar spirit out of the land.
  ? ????????????? ????????????, ?????????? ?????????? ?????????; ??????????? ??????? ???-????-??????????, ?????????? ?????????????. 4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
  ? ???????? ???????, ???-??????? ????????????; ????????, ?????????? ?????? ?????. 5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly.
  ? ??????????? ??????? ????????, ????? ??????? ??????--???? ??????????? ???? ??????????, ???? ????????????. 6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
  ? ????????? ??????? ??????????, ??????????-??? ?????? ????????-????, ????????? ???????, ????????????-?????; ??????????? ???????? ??????, ?????? ?????? ????????-???? ??????? ?????. 7 Then said Saul unto his servants: 'Seek me a woman that divineth by a ghost, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.' And his servants said to him: 'Behold, there is a woman that divineth by a ghost at En-dor.'
  ? ?????????????? ???????, ???????????? ????????? ????????, ????????? ???? ???????? ????????? ??????, ?????????? ???-????????? ???????; ?????????, ?????- (???????-) ??? ??? ???????, ????????? ???, ??? ??????-????? ????????. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said: 'Divine unto me, I pray thee, by a ghost, and bring me up whomsoever I shall name unto thee.'
  ? ????????? ????????? ??????, ?????? ?????? ????????? ??? ??????-?????? ???????, ?????? ???????? ???-???????? ?????-?????????????, ???-???????; ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????????, ????????????. 9 And the woman said unto him: 'Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that divine by a ghost or a familiar spirit out of the land; wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?'
  ? ???????????? ???? ???????, ???????? ??????: ???-??????, ???-????????? ?????? ????????? ??????. 10 And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying: 'As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.'
  ?? ?????????, ?????????, ???-???, ???????-?????; ?????????, ???-????????? ???????-???. 11 Then said the woman: 'Whom shall I bring up unto thee?' And he said: 'Bring me up Samuel.'
  ?? ???????? ????????? ???-?????????, ?????????? ??????? ???????; ????????? ????????? ???-??????? ?????? ?????? ???????????, ???????? ???????. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying: 'Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.'
  ?? ????????? ???? ????????? ???-?????????, ???? ??? ??????; ????????? ????????? ???-???????, ???????? ???????? ?????? ???-???????. 13 And the king said unto her: 'Be not afraid; for what seest thou?' And the woman said unto Saul: 'I see a godlike being coming up out of the earth.'
  ?? ????????? ????, ???-????????, ????????? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ????? ??????; ???????? ??????? ????-????????? ????, ????????? ???????? ??????? ??????????????. {?} 14 And he said unto her: 'What form is he of?' And she said: 'An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a robe.' And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and prostrated himself. {S}
  ?? ????????? ????????? ???-???????, ?????? ??????????????? ?????????? ?????; ????????? ??????? ???-??? ????? ?????????????? ?????????? ????, ????????? ??? ??????? ?????-??????? ???? ???? ??????-???????????? ????-???????????, ??????????? ????, ????????????? ??? ????????. {?} 15 And Samuel said to Saul: 'Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?' And Saul answered: 'I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams; therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.' {S}
  ?? ????????? ?????????, ???????? ?????????????: ??????? ??? ?????????, ??????? ??????. 16 And Samuel said: 'Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine adversary?
  ?? ????????? ?????? ???, ????????? ??????? ????????; ?????????? ?????? ???-???????????? ?????????, ???????????? ???????? ???????. 17 And the LORD hath wrought for Himself; as He spoke by me; and the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thy hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David.
  ?? ????????? ???-?????????? ??????? ??????, ?????-???????? ??????-?????? ??????????; ???-???? ???????? ??????, ??????-???? ?????? ??????? ??????. 18 Because thou didst not hearken to the voice of the LORD, and didst not execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
  ?? ???????? ?????? ???? ???-?????????? ???????, ??????-?????????????, ???????, ?????? ????????? ??????; ???? ???-??????? ??????????, ?????? ?????? ??????-?????????????. 19 Moreover the LORD will deliver Israel also with thee into the hand of the Philistines; and to-morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me; the LORD will deliver the host of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.'
  ? ????????? ???????, ????????? ?????-???????? ???????, ???????? ?????, ?????????? ?????????; ????-?????, ???-????? ???--???? ??? ????? ?????, ????-??????? ?????-??????????. 20 Then Saul fell straightway his full length upon the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
  ?? ????????? ????????? ???-???????, ???????? ????-??????? ?????; ????????? ??????, ?????? ???????? ??????????? ??????????, ????????? ???????? ?????????, ?????????? ???-?????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????. 21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore affrighted, and said unto him: 'Behold, thy handmaid hath hearkened unto thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spokest unto me.
  ?? ????????, ??????-??? ???-?????? ??????? ???????????, ?????????? ????????? ????-?????, ????????; ?????? ???? ?????, ???? ?????? ??????????. 22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thy handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.'
  ?? ?????????, ????????? ??? ?????, ????????????-??? ???????? ?????-?????????, ??????????? ???????; ????????, ?????????, ?????????, ???-?????????. 23 But he refused, and said: 'I will not eat.' But his servants, together with the woman, urged him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.
  ?? ??????????? ?????-???????? ?????????, ?????????? ???????????????; ?????????-????? ?????????, ?????????? ???????. 24 And the woman had a fatted calf in the house; and she made haste, and killed it; and she took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof;
  ?? ?????????? ???????-??????? ????????? ????????, ???????????; ?????????? ??????????, ??????????? ??????. {?} 25 and she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night. {P}
• 

  Iron Rod

  Thanks for that, writetoknow.

  It certainly appears to me that Saul thought that he was talking to Samuel.

  Whoever wrote the account didn't do anything to correct that perception, either.

  Excuse me while I run this joke in the ground: NotWellTranslated indeed!
• 

  tula

  18 Because thou didst not hearken to the voice of the LORD, and didst not execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

  Saul defeated them utterly, but earned the wrath of God by sparing some for use as slaves, and failing to burn their treasures (1 Sam.). Saul also hesitated to kill Agag, at which point Samuel executed the Amalekite king himself.

  In the Pentateuch, the Amalekites are nomads who attacked the Hebrews at Rephidim in the desert of Sinai during their exodus from Egypt: "smiting the hindmost, all that were feeble behind," (1 Samuel 15:2). The Tanakh recognizes the Amalekites as indigenous tribesmen, "the first of the nations" (Numbers 24:20).

  It is important, in Jewish tradition, that the plot to exterminate the Jews, as reported in the book of Esther, was carried out by Haman, an Agagite, or Amalekite. Because the Lord promised to "blot out the name" of Amalek, when the book of Esther is read at the Purim festival, the hearers make noise whenever "Haman" is mentioned, so his name is not heard.

  Rejection of God

  The concept has long been used by rabbis (particularly the Baal Shem Tov) to represent the rejection of God, or Atheism. Of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) followed by Orthodox Jews, three refer to the Amalekites: to remember what the Amalekites did to the Jews, to not forget what the Amalekites did to the Jews, and to destroy the Amalekites utterly. The rabbis derived these from Deuteronomy 25:17-18, Exodus 17:14 and 1 Sam. 15:3. Rashi explains the third mitzvah:

  From man unto woman, from infant unto suckling, from ox unto sheep, so that the name of Amalek not be mentioned even with reference to an animal by saying "This animal belonged to Amalek".

  So my question is, in continuing to dissect these scriptures....

  was this knowledge of god's command to kill every animal and destroy every possession of Amalek made known publicly through older scriptures that had been written at the time? Was this common knowledge that the medium had? Or did she indeed summon a spirit from the dead to relate this?
• 

  avengers

  The woman had contact with an evil or devilish spirit in the form of Samuel by whom she was deceived and controlled.

  Well? Who're you gonna call??

  GHOSTBUSTERS!