For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  suprashy

  Trevor, Saint,

  Well, I sat with a member (non-baptised) last night, and we discussed certain issues. I mentioned both say they are the "First and Last," so why would Jesus claim the same title as God, if he is inferior to God?

  -"That does not make them equal, bec. I believe that they are not. He probably means firstborn", was the answer I got. (Trevor, unfortunately, I did not read your post re: "firstborn", otherwise I could have rebutted her), but after hearing that response, I immeadiately began to reason that there is no way she is going to even agree with me from a logical perspective-it is sad. Anyone can read that if both make the same claim, then if not the same, at least a level of equality exists.

  I mentioned Isaiah 9:6 "....son is born...eternal father", but her response was Jesus is the father of us, and not God.

  So we went back and forth, but she did concede I do make good arguments for my beliefs-WOW!!

  Then, I mentioned the UN affair.

  I had printed many articles from this website, and as she read them, she immeadiately said "Apostates, the first thing you should do is ask them why are they no longer JW's". This is a fair statement. I do believe I had asked one person here, and the response was "for 30 yrs. I had seen the lies and deception". My mistake was I did not mention this. (I have had this in my mind, it is common sense, I should have asked this earlier).

  So now, I ask many of you, bec. I feel the best way to learn about an organization, is to hear from their representatives, but also what better way to learn than from hearing it from an ex member? After hearing both sides, I can make my own decision.

  For the ex JW's here:

  (1)Why are you no longer part of the JW?

  (2)Do you believe in "standard" Christian beliefs? (Cross, Trinity)?

  (3)If yes to above, what made you change your beliefs?

  This is my mistake, I should have asked this first. I always thought JW's are so close, unless the person really did something bad, (adultery, killing, drugs), they would not leave the JW, (or be asked to leave).

  I am in a position where I have something many people do not. (I think bec. I need to question every point, that is what lead me to this website, by doing a search for JW's). I now have two viewpoints about the JW. This is the best way for a person to learn. If the organization is just, and correct, then what I learn will refute the oppostion towards it. However, I can say that my Bible (KJV), supports my "standard" Christian belief, but to hear how it works on the inside is something that I can use when they talk to me. Even now, I say to her, "if you can prove me wrong in my Bible, I will listen to what you have to say, but prove me wrong first." I don't think they can, there are too many verses that show Jesus cannot be inferior to God.

  Opinions will be opinions. Naturally, if one is an ex-member of an org., they may have biased views against it. The UN affair is a matter of FACT.

  I presented to her the letter, and said "for some time now, the UN has been regarded as the beast by the JW. A letter has emerged showing affiliations with the UN. Granted, if you need to join them to do your work, ok I'll give that to you, but personally, I would not join the beast for anything. However, recent articles have shown a pro-UN viewpoint. How can the JW have a pro-beast viewpoint?"

  "Well, I'm sure we had to join them for our work reasons, in order to accomplish certain goals we have", was the response.

  I said "ok, but a form needs to be signed every year by the JW, and in that form are certain guidelines which include the NGO must 'support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;' how can you respect the beast? So we've gone from beast to pro-beast. This bothers me."

  She will look into the matter and I look forward to her rebuttal. As I think of it, back in the 50's, 60's JW members probably died believing the UN was the beast. Today, the JW's are reading the same publications promoting the beast.

  I understand now, that they have disassociated themselves from the UN, but history cannot be changed, we have 2 opposing views, from the same organization.

  Another subject was Christy Harvey's rebuttal to "Should you Believe in the Trinity"? http://www.witnessinc.com/trinity.htm (Thank you Trevor).

  Christy does an excellent job of quoting the Anti-Nicene Fathers' writings. The JW article says these fathers did not support the Trinity. Christy claims they did support the Trinity, and quotes their writings which CLEARLY states their pro-Trinity view. Fortunately, Christy provides references to the exact page. My goal now, is to find these articles, sit down with my JW friend, and read them together. One of us will be proven wrong. I can't wait to get my hands on these writings!

  Does anyone have in their posession these articles? (If so, scanned pics. would be GREATLY appreciated). Otherwise, does anyone know if they are easily attained? I work close to a library & bookstore, so I can try to find them there, plus there is the internet.

  I notice this website is called "jehovas-witness.com/forum". This is a wonderful website, where both views can be discussed, and the truth become known. Are there any active JW's here? Are any reading this? How about a response?

  As always, I thank you for your help!

  Regards,

  Suprashy
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  Trevor Scott

  Hi Suprashy,

  "Reasoning" with a jw is a difficult task indeed. They are trained to talk, which is really to repeat what they are told, and not to listen or reason. Almost without realizing it, they have learned to do without thinking. Concepts that are contrary to WTS authorized doctrine are immediately dismissed as "false", without so much as a second thought.

  Regarding the first and last, I always ask, how many firsts and lasts can there be? The nature of this title is exclusive - there can only be one first and one last. It's so simple, but the jw will not "get" it.

  The other thing that escapes the jw, is that the target audience of the first century was ultra-familiar with the OT. They knew very well that Jehovah was the "first and the last", and here was Jesus, laying claim to the title, clearly claiming equality with God. Same goes for Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. The Jews to whom Jesus spoke were intimately familiar with Ex 3:14: "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'" They knew exactly what Jesus was claiming when he said "before Abraham was born, I AM". The next verse proves they knew what Jesus was claiming: "At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

  In dealing with a jw, you need a very comprehensive argument, one with lots of supporting evidence. An argument consisting of one or two scriptures is more easily dismissed than one built upon 10 or 20 scriptures. A jw will be used to having people throw one or two scriptures at him/her; this happens fairly regularly during their door-to-door recruitment, and is easily "refuted" (in the jw mind) and easily forgotten. But a solid argument that takes in numerous scriptures cannot be so easily refuted or dismissed, and you just might get the jw to think! (And that, in my experience, is the key.)

  In answer to your three questions:

  1. I left the WTS/JW after performing an objective study of the organization. By objective, I mean examining both sides - same thing you are doing. I studied WTS publications, and I read material from former members ("Apocalypse Now", James Penton; "Crisis of Consciense", Ray Franz). The more I studied, the more lies, hypocrisy, false prophecy, and hiding of the truth I saw from the WTS. I verified all the claims of the ex-members. It became clear that God could not be using such a hypocritical, lying, false prophet as "His organization", "His channel of communication".

  Secondly, I starting reading a real bible (New Revised Standard Version), and kept an extensive list of verses that were differently translated in the NWT. It became very clear the WTS was intentionally obscuring scriptures supporting the Deity of Christ. I started studying New Testament Greek, and could then see there was absolutely no scholarly support for the NWT variations - these were deliberate mistranslations.

  Once my JW parents, siblings, and friends realized I had become an "apostate", they turned on me with slander and shunning. Of course, I tried to share what I had learned with them, but they reacted the same way your jw friend reacted to the UN issue. There was no going back for me, so I wrote a formal letter of dissasociation. That was about 15 months ago.

  2. I am a Christian, and I believe in the true Deity of Jesus Christ. To me, "Trinity" is just a word, it doesn't have much meaning for me. In fact, I think it limits God, so I tend not to use it. I do believe the Holy Spirit is God. I believe Jesus was crucified in the traditional sense of the word. Right now I attend a Baptist church.

  3. I think I answered this question already.

  If you haven't read this article yet, let me recommend it again. It is a prime example and great expose of the typical deceitful tactics employed by the WTS. This is what you will be dealing with if you are witnessing to jws:

  : http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6507/de01015.htm

  If you want to learn more about the WTS, check out these links:

  : http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/doctrine.htm
  : http://www.freeminds.org/history/history.htm
  : http://www.freeminds.org/psych/psych.htm

  Here's are a couple links to some writings of the early Church. Hopefully this helps in your research:

  : http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html
  : http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/fathers.htm

  TS,

  (edited to fix a link)
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  Satanus

  suprashy

  1. I'm not a jw because: As a jw i was getting more and more dpressed, even thinking about suicide. I had done my best to follow their instructions. Failure, guilt, depression followed. I read ray franz' crisis of conscience. From that i could see god wasn't directing them.

  I studied the bible for myself. I was in standard christianity for a while. Then i found preterism made a lot more sense. Then i found out the bible didn't make sense.
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  suprashy

  Trevor, Scott, and all who have helped me:

  Thank you as usual! I'm glad to be here. In fact, talking with a JW is a learning experience. It made me study my Bible even more and do research. As I read through the links (Trevor and others have sent me), my faith becomes even more stronger. What's beautiful, is that we have historical evidence, archaelogical findings, literature, etc.. that prove my beliefs too, and not just publications written by the church to support their viewpoints. Thanks!

  Regards,

  Suprashy
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  suprashy

  Hi again people!

  Sorry, I wrote "Trevor, Scott, and all who have helped me:"

  I meant, Trevor, Saint, and all who have helped me!

  Sorry about that!

  Regards,

  Suprashy