by suprashy 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Im sorry, but if you cannot see the usefulness in what I posted, then you are the one who needs to sort his/her self out.
Can you imagine how Jesus must feel that people are arguing over what he died on? Thats just silly.
I answered truthfully and on topic, inline with the discussion. If you cannot accept this, then go play with some lego.
Newbie meets Jedi in battle of the death instrument!!!
"Ah, I see your schwarts is as big as mine..."
LT
Well presented.
Something else that came to mind.
The breadth of love of the WT doctrine goes as far as one's own 'stake' and it is reflected in the type of work. The religion isn't about others as much as it is one's own gain, and it naturally lacks the breadth of love that is the 'light that shines before men'. It's amazing how they've also become symbolically alienated.
"..that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have power to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge.."
Bang
Sorry to be a stick in the mud. But I'm standing with Logical on this one. The point is that Christ died a painful and slow death on something in order to atone for mankind's sin. The point is that he died. Not whether he died on a cross or a stake or a tree.
Like most times the JW's lose sight of the POINT and focus on details that are irrelevant to worshipping God. (i.e. Like you MUST wear white shirts or you MUST drive a 4-door car, or men MUST not let their hair touch their collars.) The thought that people with colored shirts, long hair, driving a Kharmangiah just CANNOT worship God fully is ridiculous!! Ooooh. Just steams me up thinking about it!
Andi
The instrument that Jesus died on, be it a one beam or two beam piece of wood, was used to put him to death as a criminal. The two evildoers that were killed alongside him were also given the death penalty. Remember Jesus was accused of sedition against the government, even though it was not true. As far as the Romans were concerned they thought that they were killing a criminal. They were using the instrument of death.
We are told by Jesus to keep his death as a memorial to him, not the instrument that he died on. So it really doesn't matter if the instrument was one or two beamed.
Pureheart
Billygoat, Pureheart:
I asked this question because it DOES matter. JW's believe He died on a stake, and that the cross is a symbol of paganism, which the Christians (such as myself) have adopted. They are bad mouthing me without any evidence to back it up, and they are spreading it around the world by the millions. How can one say "it does not matter"??
Thanks to the people that gave me answers (either for or against), I was able to look up particular websites, go to bookstores, and find the historical evidence, and literature, about how criminals were crucified in Christ's day. aChristian responded with great historical writings-thank you. Idaho, thanks for www.christidan.edu, where archaelogists have found the remains of a "cross-crucified" skeleton. TS, I am always greatful for your wise contributions. Thank you all that responded to the question!
Thanks to this website, I am learning that many religious scholars have written books, done research on Roman history, and have spent time on this issue. Tell me, "does it not matter"? Maybe they were "silly", and should have been "playing lego" too??
If the JW are going to use the Anti-Nicene Fathers as supporting their view that they were non-trinitarian (which is totally false-Justin Martyr, along with others wrote about their beliefs on trinity-which defeats the JW on their "Should u beleive in the Trinity?" pamphlet), but J. Martyr, (and other fathers), also believed He died on the cross. By them using the Anti-Nicene Fathers' writings, they have opened up a can of worms. I will show these writings to (1), prove the article is false, bec. it is trying to defeat the spirit of the writings, by carefully selecting what to quote, and (2), these very same writers, whom the WT mentions, believe the cross was used. This is powerful, powerful evidence to sit down, and discuss when a JW comes knocking on my door telling me the cross is not from the Bible at all. Once again, I ask "does it not matter"??
I have the fathers' writings (which they give credit to), I have historical findings, and every Bible dictionary I have researched for the past few days (not many), show the meaning of the "stauros" to be primarily stake, but can also mean cross. The JW stop short by saying it simply means stake. (Naturally, bec. then otherwise, they could not say the cross is pagan, so they leave the "cross" definition out).
This is why I (somebody totally new, and uneducated in this field), and others, AND many other scholars from the past, present, and future, will address this issue. If I just played lego, instead of do research, I would not have the information I am now armed with, to debate with a JW.
What is sad, though, is that being a religious discussion website, somebody had to post a "who cares" attitude response. I clearly labled my thread, if one does not like it, why spend the energy and time to post a response like "Who cares"?? What is it to the individual? I'm not bothering him/her. If the title of the thread is uninteresting, move on, that's all, why insult???
Once again, thanks all. The more I read the WT articles, the more I research what they say, and sadly, the more untrue their articles become.
Regards,
Suprashy
On this matter of "Cross or "Stake" Shouldn't anything we believe about any scriptural matter be supported by the Bible? In the interest of TRUTH it really matters. If it is not true then it is a false prophecy. If it is a false prophecy then the one uttering this prophecy is a false prophet. The Society put out a brochure at one time I think (not certain} it was a brochure on "Blood". As I remember this article was on page seven. It pictured a Roman Arena with condemned criminals who had been executed. You have to look closely at that article. If you do you will see that those condemned men where hanging on crosses. One has to ask now then why teach one thing and show it to be something else in one of the published articles? That is confusing to me! What do they believe "CROSS" or "STAKE?" If we look at John 20:25 Thomas is found to be saying: "except I shall see in his "HANDS" the print of the "NAILS" and put my finger into the print of the "NAILS" ... I will not believe". Now if Jesus both hands were extended above his head with his hands together two nails would have had to be used. But the Society shows him in their articles with only one nail through both hands. Maybe it's not important to some who will defend the lie at any cost. But the Bible say's "NO Lie originates with the truth" 1 John 2:21 no matter how small. What part of "NO" isn't understood? If Jesus had of been executed on a stake as is taught Jesus would have said "Put your hand into the nail". He did not say that he said "NAILS" That is my two cents worth. Bill Parker
Let me make a correction on the subject of "Cross or Stake". The allusion was to more than one nail. "Nails" would be suppporting the view that he was executed on the cross, not on a torture stake. Sorry about the typographical error. IT happens! Bill Parker
Why is this relative to faith in Jesus Christ?
It is simply an arguing point.
Joelbear,
I agree with you. What is relative to faith is that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose on the third day.
Problem is, the WTS made this into an arguing point when they chose to condemn "Christendom" as pagan because of their teaching that Christ was killed on a cross. Don't Christians have a responsibility to refute such slanderous claims of paganism and apostasy? If the goal of a Christian is to bring persons to Christ, then the instrument of Christ's death is something that will have to be "argued" when dealing with a jw.
The biblical as well as secular and contemporary evidence is that Jesus was crucified in the traditional sense. If a jw can be made to realize this, then perhaps they will begin to think twice about their all-knowing governing body.
TS,
