Where the Bible Got It Right- An Atheist's Perspective On Love and Altruism

by nvrgnbk 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Borgia
    Borgia

    Proplog2

    Although I find your assessment of the christian teachings to be very interesting, indeed, I do not concurr with a few of your statements:

    Without Jesus there would never have been western civilization.
    Instead, Christians, after the council in Jerusalem (Acts 15) spread
    throughout the Roman empire. Some have said that the Council in
    Jerusalem was the beginning of Western Civilization. It was really
    important to quit cutting off foreskins!
    If it weren't for Christianity Europe would have become Moslem.
    Moslems would have been the only ones out there converting people
    at the edge of the sword. The Americas would have been discovered by
    someone named Mohammed.

    Western civilisation is based upon greek - roman traditions. mingled with Celtic/ Gothic/ German influences. Renaissance (1400 - 1500) has done more to Western civilisation than christianity.

    As for the spread after Acts 15. The spread had already occured before that. It was not very clear if the system of worship was to be embedded within jewish tradition or not. The latter was decided upon, which gave a huge boost to expansion. On top, the appealing feature of christianity to women was key in the spread. See, Acts

    In 732, at the battle of poitier, Charles Martel d' Anjou is thought to have stopped the islamic invasion of Europe. Not all historians agree on this given the absence of any info in arabic sources as to an invasion of france and subsequent battle of poitier. On top, the then ruling Al-Walid ibn Abd al-Mali in Damascus has told his top general that he was not interested in invading France, like he had been in invading Spain (7000 toops only, years 711 - 714) (see: Rolf Palm in his book: The Arabs.)

    Additionally, Francs were not the only inhabitants of Europe. There were Frisians, Saxons, etc. For 7000 Sarazens to take on the Francs and the the saxons alike would have been to much to take in terms of military power for conquest and occupation. (See the trouble the francs had to go through to defeat the saxons.) These people, saxons and frisians, etc were not christians at that time. Only after the Saxon defeat to Carlmagne (the francs) did they accept christianity.

    The Invasion of the spanish penisula by the Sarazens in 711, has not turned the peninsula into an islamic country for good. The same went on as it did not turn into an arian christian country just because it's rulers were arain christians (visigoths). The kingdom of Asturias was founded by a nobleman as a christian kingdom. You might say, it is the birthplace from were the reconquista has spread. Later, up untill in the 15th century, the reconquista shows a powerfull catholic christian base on the peninsula.

    On the other hand within the muslem kingdom of Cordoba etc, a relative tolerant ambiance was existent which did not harm the cooperation between the different religious groups. "El Andaluz" is still the name for that shining example. The period following, ruled by their most catholic majesties has only rendered us horrible cultural bigotries.

    So, although I agree with the muslem only evangelizing part in your post, it is in my view a bridge to far to say without christianty we would 've been......I do recognize however that the evangelizing spirit of christianty has been a powerful ally. The primary thrust of the voyages and expansions of western realms has been money.

    Towards your idea about muslems discovering the world......

    In 801 Barcelona became "french". It is not a matter of faith but a matter of military dominance whether or not a particular piece of land can be captured and held. Faith played a role in terms of mobilizing people. Expansions wars and reconnaissance voyages cost money. These were expensive. Comparable with contemporary space travel and current wars. There is always an economic rational behind it. Whether tin wars, opium wars, or oil wars. Even the conquest of spain in 711 was paid for by the vast treasures that could be captured, in terms of food, merchandise, women. The role of religion here is only to mobilize people.

    Christian doctrine has done nothing for us to get us out of the dark. Instead the discovery of classic works of the Romans and Greeks did. This same issue can be seen within muslim kingdoms at the time. Philosofy, art, poetry and other realms of science have all been influnced by works from the classical period.

    It has been on the wings of a different bird that the boost to discovery has been incited. it was a product of pagan oringin: humanism. On top, trade has done a lot to spread the idears of finding new ways to circumvent the greedy middleman.......Just economics. It is by cutting out the middle man, the muslem kingdoms, that the decline was brought about,

    Now, let's say western Europe did not turn Christian at all. What would have been left were pagan kingdoms competing with muslem kingdoms. Were would have been the crusades, the fight over "holy places"? Zionism, etc? History would have been different, but not in the sense of a muslem hegemony. I would bet the contrary! (see Jared Diamonds: Guns, Germs and Steel)

    And as far as the bible got it right.........In that case it must have been an invention of the biblewriter. Compare codex Hammurabi with the mosaic law) At any rate, sensibel things to do, are not the sole discretion of the bible,. Rather, the other way around. The bible is partly influenced by sensibel issues.

    Cheers

    Borgia.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk: Most of what I post isn't the kind of stuff that can be agreed with. It's too speculative. Almost like science fiction. My philosophy is simple: "nothing is exactly the way things appear"

    I understand that.

  • eclipse
    eclipse
    Its best ethical teachings are as good as the best ethical teachings from other religious traditions and from the writings of prominent figures of freethought. Teachings such as these, from whatever source, are what I would expect a book written by a benevolent god to look like. Were the entire Bible written in this way, one of the major roadblocks to my believing in it would be removed.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Eclipse:

    I'm not impressed by the moral teachings of any religion. It doesn't take extraordinary intelligence to know what will get you into trouble with a community. We can form a pretty good moral code by thinking in terms of what we don't like people doing to us. Some people are so intuitively sensitive to social balancing that you could never codify it. These people have charisma and usually end up leading the pack. Some of these choose the dark side and become predators. Human brains have evolved to help a person fit in with a pack of 100-150. Thous shalt not murder? duh! Don't crap in the camp? duh!

    The part of the Bible that I think is extraordinary is its focus on behavior of Nations. It's at the national level where people are helpless and are exploited. The prophecies focus on the Kingdom of God making earthly governments responsive to human needs. Jesus' simple message of love comes into conflict with the selfish aims of ruling authorities.

    The final battle is between the "sky government" (Kingdom of the Heavens) and the Kings of the earth. It is the Wild Beast that is thrown into Gehenna. The armies are killed with a long sword much as hades is described as wielding indicating the possibility of resurrection.

    This "sky government" is the unknown. Are there other intelligent entities out there (outer space or more likely parallel universe) that want to help humans get over this selfish "nationalistic" stage of evolution?

    There are two possible "A" words here. Angel and Alien. I am an atheist because the universe doesn't look like it ought to if it is the creation of an omniscient omnipotent being. The universe looks like an ad hoc collection of many attempts to insert meaning into a very messy collection of random events. But some kind of federation of advanced societies - that is a real possibility.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    I for one would like to know where your "Perspective" on "Love" and "Altruism" comes from.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    I for one would like to know where your "Perspective" on "Love" and "Altruism" comes from.

    Not sure if you're asking me.

    If you are, my answer is the commonality of human experience.

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