Bible Error: How Did Judas Die?

by JosephAlward 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Matthew says that Judas hanged himself, while the writer in Acts says that he fell and his guts spilled out. Both of these accounts cannot be true. Either one is, or neither is, and this means that the Bible is not error-free. Here are the relevant verses:

    The writer in Matthew wrote,

    "When Judas...saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse...Then he went away and hanged himself."(Matthew 27:1-5 NIV)

    However, the writer in Acts thinks Judas died when he fell in his field, his guts burst open and his intestines spilled out:

    "With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out." (Acts 1:15-18 NIV)

    Now, imaginative and extremely hopeful fundamentalists will try to argue that Judas threw a rope around the limb of a tree that happened to be on a rocky cliff bordering his field, and when he hanged himself the tree limb snapped. He fell, striking jagged rocks, and broke apart. Of course, that's so preposterously far-fetched that even the apologists don't really believe it, but, that's the best argument they have, so they stick to it.

    Those who aren't die-rather-than-admit-Bible-error apologists accept that these two accounts of Judas' death are contradictory and just one more example of the many errors or contradictions in the Bible.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • bboyneko
    bboyneko

    He hanged himself, then a passing bus hit him off the tree and he tumbled down a hill where he was dashed to peices in a bathtub that had just had a plugged-in hair dryer fallinto it and then a stray bullet passed through the tub and shot him thru the head.

    -Dan

  • accuracy
    accuracy

    Joseph, you must know that there are many scholarly works -- not just by fundamentalists, but by conservative Christian scholars -- who see the glass as half full rather than half empty in this instance. That Christian traditions are reported in different form and manner may as well reflect reports that are complementary rather than contradictory. It is a stretch to argue on the basis of our rationale 2,000 years after the fact. To me, it's like those guys who want us to believe they know what Jesus really said, 2,000 years down the line, as opposed to the testimony of people who actually lived in the time of Jesus, or shortly thereafter. The "Jesus Seminar" reconstructionists are doing a hatchet job on the Gospel of Christ, but what standing do they have to give us a better reading of what Jesus taught?

    There are many so-called hard sayings and apparent contradictions in the Bible. Conservative scholars and Evangelicals believe that they can be resolved in a number of ways. To some who are more critical, such resolution may not be enough. To each his own.

    Obviously, those who do not wish to hold the Bible as divinely-inspired will not do so, and those who do so wish, will. What remains certain is that we, today, do not have all the facts and the evidence at our disposal, and whatever arguments we come up with, on either side, will be neither proof positive, nor final.

  • linzion
    linzion

    Hi Joseph,
    I may have an acceptable or at the very least possible answer to your query. In Matt 27:3-10 we see that the priests of the day took back the 30 pieces of silver and bought the field. Since they considered the money to belong to Judas, it would not be out of line to purchase this field in his name. Nor would it be considered to uncouth to bury him in it. If they cut him off his noose and threw him into the grave, his bowels may very well burst open and spilled out. That is all the writer of Acts 1:18-19 specified. He did not go into detail on whether or not Judas was already dead. If you use the Strongs Concordance, you can see that 'falling headlong' means to be laid prone. Since the field was purchased with his money and he was the first person buried there, it was only natural to name it for him. In this case, he was a man associated with blood, both in his life and in his death. What do you think?

    Lin

  • detective
    detective

    Lin,
    are you saying that Judah was pushed or thrown rather than fell? Following your thinking, it looks as if you are suggesting that a dead Judah was pushed or thrown or buried in a field that was bought in his name by some unmentioned third party.I'm not sure I understand how you come to the conclusion that what is written in acts is any more figurative than what was written in Matthew. I suppose I could argue that Judah was hung after he had fallen and his guts splattered by this unnamed third party. Or, Judah could have attempted to hang himself, only succeeded in winding himself, the branch broke but he survived only to fall into his field and die. Seems like conjecture to me. I have no problem with the fact that the bible contradicts itself and as a result I don't feel compelled to offer conjecture or explanation that simply doesn't exist in the bible to fill in the holes. I do, however, find it interesting when people reach for a plausible explanation where one doesn't exist. Are you uncomfortable with the idea that there may be some difficult passages to explain away or are you comfortable with that fact but are just offering up a few ideas for people to mull over?

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Lin writes, “If they cut him off his noose and threw him into the grave, his bowels may very well burst open and spilled out”

    Welcome to the forum, Lin.

    “falling headlong” is ginomai (to become) prenes (headlong). The word prenes is used in only one place in the Bible, and it’s translated as “headlong.” Thus, literally it’s “to become headlong,” i.e., “to become head first” as diving toward the earth, headfirst. I don’t see any precedent for “laid prone.”

    I also must disagree with your suggestion that throwing a body--living, or dead--from a height of perhaps two feet above the ground into a hole perhaps six feet would cause the abdomen to burst open. Perhaps you’ve seen the horrific photographs and film showing the tens of thousands of naked concentration-camp victims who had been thrown down into the pits? None of the bodies showed signs of having suffered a rupture for any reason, let alone from striking the ground.

    This is too fanciful a scenario to be taken seriously, Lin, not only because of what I just mentioned, but because if the Acts writer (Luke) had believed that Judas had first been hanged, he certainly would have told us about it; otherwise, he would know that he would be confusing readers for the next two thousand years. Furthermore, the Luke knew that bodies just don’t burst open when they’re dropped eight feet; he would have known that the readers would wonder what the heck happened to cause Judas to burst open like that, so Luke would have explained what had happened, if it really happened.

    The key to understanding what Luke wanted us to understand is found in the following passage:

    “And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined.” (Luke 5:37)

    Old skins cannot expand to accommodate the gases released from still-fermenting new fine, while new ones are still elastic enough to accommodate the release of gas. Luke was expecting his readers would see that Judas was holding on to the old law, the old way of thinking, and was unable to accommodate the new teachings of Jesus; thus, the Judas with the old ideas burst open just as does an old wineskin filled with new wine. Luke clearly never meant for his readers to take his description of Judas literally.

    Apologists who are trapped within the framework of a belief that the Bible is literally true will never accept this simple explanation, however. For them, it’s better to propose any possible explanation, no matter how far fetched, than to agree that a story about one of the principals in the Bible is not really true. They think they are in the daylight, and the rest of us are in darkness.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    Hi Joseph, I love your posts!!! That's because they deal with scripture and I love scriptural debates.

    But your problem is that you take what the scriptures say, add some inaccuracies and then imagine there is a contradiction, when there is none, or there is a logical alternative.

    In this case, you simply don't understand the Jewish tradition of not overstating anything, but by insinuating more than one fact by two, seemingly opposing statements. That is, one gospel gives you one detail and another another detail leaving you to find the TRUTH between the two. That is the "gospel style".

    This is the same in this case. One gospel tell us that Judas hanged himself, and another tells us he threw himself over a cliff.

    Now why is it that you haven't read between the lines and realize that the way Judas hanged himself was by throwing himself over a cliff?

    You know?

    In other words, one way to hang yourself is to tie a rope around your neck and then jump off a cliff, so that when the rope jerked it would break your neck. Simple. Only in this case, the roped snaped back and jerked him against some jagged rocks that caused his guts to spill out! It's as simple as that. One account simply gives us some facts that helps us understand more details of what happened.

    Now what annoys me further, is that you misread scripture. If you read Matthew, for instance, you can see that after Judas turned in the money to the priests that it was the priests who purchased the "field of blood". It was called the "field of blood" not because Judas killed himself there, but because it purchased the murder of Jesus.

    Furthermore, according to Matthew, if he went out right there and hung himself, the field wasn't even purchased yet, but was purchased later. So Judas didn't hang himself in his own field.

    To harmonize Acts, though, which says Judas purchased a field, what the priests must have done was used the money to purchase a field in Judas' name and then used it as a donation for burying the poor. So in that sense, the money he gave back to the priests purchased this field and so he is said to have purchased it. But it was purchased in his name post his death.

    So again, we find you anxiously trying to find errors with words and terms that may be indecently translated into English, pretending there is some error or contradiction between the gospels, when there is none.

    But a lot of this has to do with not understanding Jewish style of writing and gospel tehcnique specifically, which seems to focus on giving partial details that have to be harmonized to understand understated or unstated detail.

    Now here is a WONDROUS EXAMPLE of that:

    "Mary", "Joseph", "Peter" and several other names were very common names among the Jews. Mary was just as common among the Jews as is Mary is among Spanish people. Do you realize how many Marys there are in the Bible during Jesus' time alone?

    Well you can add two more that are not so obvious. Those two are two additional women who had the title of "Mary Magdalene". That's right, apparently "Mary Magdalene" was a title given to Mary's who were hired as personal companions or housekeepers in the Jewish household, and because "Marion" was such a common name, there were at least three Marys who were "Magdalenes" (maids) in the immediate company of the women who were around Jesus.

    So in gospel style, to cut down on confusion, since each Mary Magdalene came to visit the tomb at a different time after Jesus death, each gospel relates when each one arrived and a few details of their experience so that you can then combine all three references to complete the entire story. What you should gather though, by comparing the stories, is that there were three Mary Magdalenes that remains unstated, but should be apparent by the specific details given. But the gospels do that. They give you one half a detail here and another half there and it leaves it up to you to figure out the combined truth.

    Thus one gospel tells us one Mary Magdalene appeared alone at night to the grave and saw Jesus and went and told the disciples. This was Mary Magdalene who was employed in the household of Peter and John apparently and whom Jesus expelled seven demons.

    Shortly thereafter, the Mary Magdalene who was employed by "the Other Mary" came to the grave just to view it. She had no spices, but the ran into the two angels who told them Jesus had just left and on the road they ran into Jesus and kissed his feet. That was a different Mary Magdalene. This occurred just before sunrise.

    Then the third Mary Magdalene worked for Jesus' mother, Mary, and was with her and her relatives who had the responsibility to bring spices to the grave. They didn't get to the grave until after sunrise. By now Jesus was long gone but they did see the angels who told them to report Jesus had risen to the disciples, but they were all too afraid to do so and so did not report back.

    Now some Biblical errantists will say: "Hey, look, what a contradiction!" When really, they just don't understand Jewish writing style which doesn't like to give or repeat details but only give partial details leaving the rest for you to figure out. In this case, what was left out is that there were three Mary Magdalenes and each gospel had to cover what each did so that there was no confusion as to which one arrived at the tomb at which time.

    But because people don't understand this Jewish writing style of the gospels, they imagine there is an "error" and get all excited, when really, they are just not that astute as far as gospel writing style.

    There many other interesting examples, but that's usually the case, and that's the case here with Judas.

    Thus the ONLY THING YOU NEED TO CONCERN YOURSELF WITH is whether or not throwing yourself over a cliff with a rope around your neck qualifies as a "hanging", which it does! Some people hang themselves by getting up on a chair and pushing it away or whatever. Judas was just a bit more creative and threw himself over a cliff, which is very creative.

    Of course, the true underlying message of this information is to prove that the Jews invented bungie jumping!!!

    So Joseph, keep trying, but do try to use a bit more imagination when it comes to these "errors", you need to get the facts straight first before claiming there is an error.

    I still enjoy your attempts though. At least you're thinking!

    LG

  • tdogg
    tdogg

    Well I guess he showed you.I bet now you will never doubt the Bible again will you Joseph?

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Larsguy believes that discrepancies between gospel stories may be attributed to what he believes is a Jewish tradition of leaving out details in order that the reader will be left to figure out something on his own. However, there is no such tradition, except in the imagination of apologists.

    According to Larsguy--and many professional apologists--the Bible is like a jigsaw puzzle with many pieces missing, such as the missing piece which either (take your pick) shows Judas being thrown by the priests into his grave and bursting open, or falling from the breaking tree branch onto jagged rocks. It's up to man to guess what the missing piece looks like.

    Does this make sense? If it's true that the Bible is the only record we have of what God thought was important for us to hear, then why on earth would he make a game out of what is alleged to be the text containing the instructions humans must follow to achieve eternal salvation? Why make us guess about something as important as that?

    Doesn't it make more sense that different people had different traditions about their god, and about Jesus, and that when the editors of the Bible chose which texts to include, they decided to put *all* of the traditions down in order not to disrespect any of the people who held those traditions?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    Hi Joseph,
    Where have you been? You have decided that your view of the gospels is superior to mine. I will allow you your opinion not to agree with me that the Bible hides things, but it certainly can't preempt my view.

    However, on that point, that is again, where you error. You see, you imagine the Bible is supposed to be a nice easy book without complexities to confound people, when in fact, if you actually read the Bible you'd know that is PRECISELY the case.

    The Bible is meant for Christ and his followers SPECIFICALLY and not for outsiders!

    Didn't you read in scripture when the disciples asked Jesus why he spoke in parables that he told them that these secrets were for THEM and so that the outsiders, looking in vain, would not understand?

    So how is it that you think that the Bible is supposed to be understood by nonbelievers at the level of Jesus' followers when he directly says that he deliberately spoke in riddles so that they WOULD NOT understand?

    So your view that the Bible is an open book for the public to read in all simplicity isn't even according to the Bible itself. Instead, it is a book which purposely hides things.

    Haven't you heard about Paul referring to "sacred secrets"? Or Daniel saying to "seal up the secrets" until the last day? So how is it that you think that everything is supposed to be so simple and easy? It is not. In fact, it's just the opposite. The gems of truth in scripture comes from intense focus and study. Those without such intensity remain confused and bewildered and "late".

    This is critically illustrated in the parable about the wise and foolish virgins. Generally speaking, the foolish virgins felt self confident with just oil in their lamps, meaning, a casual superficial interest in Biblical things. But the "wise virgins" were much more attentive and they carried extra oil in their lamps. Thus when the critical time came, those with the extra oil were able to go on to the next step while those with only a casual interest lamp's died out and gave no more light.

    So you see, intense study and Biblical research and knowledge is where the sacred secrets are in scripture.

    So I find it quite profound that you as an outsider and doubter of scripture would challenge me when I'm revealing to you the hidden secrets of scripture.

    So what we have here is me getting a lot more out of scripture as a believer than you as an unbeliever, but the scriptures are totally in my favor on that point since Jesus himself said he spoke in a way so that outsiders would not understand these sacred things.

    So your belief that everything is right out in the open and easy and not complex, again, addresses your technical error in reading what is stated in scripture, in this instance, the fact that Jesus clearly shows he intended to present a complex message that only his followers would understand.

    The fact that you're being stumbled by scripture, therefore, proves that that is the case. You as an outsider don't understand the scripture and it's complex ways, but I as an insider do. So you see, you can't dismiss something you don't understand. Nor can you dismiss the scriptures for being noncomplex when you have Jesus' own words stating precisely that.

    So it's fine with me that you are finding all the errors you need in a book of confusion since you're the outsider the Bible wasn't meant for anyway. It was meant for ME and other believers to find delight and light and understanding in, which we do in abundance.

    So you see, Joseph, a lot of your problems with the Bible will continue simply because you're an outsider, but don't imagine the Bible was written for you to understand. To the contrary it was written in a way to confound you, but to enlighten me. Which is exactly what is going on here. You are confounded by the darkness of scripture and I am astounded by the incredible light.

    So you're definitely excused. Find all the erorrs you want. They were put there to stumble you. The Bible was not meant for outsiders and nonbelievers. On the other hand, we prophets of scripture have no problems with scripture.

    L.G.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit