Attn: JW's and Bible Students - Lets Discuss John 1:1

by lovelylil 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Syntaxo
    Syntaxo

    Just two other (and for me, final) points: To add an "a" in English translation to bring out the sense of the Greek, even when the Greek grammar has no "a" but is without the Greek definite article, is a standard translation practice. All Bibles do this, when the translators feel it is necessary. Maybe not at John 1:1, but certainly elsewhere. There is nothing wrong with this, because English is not Greek, and to properly translate Greek sentences into fluent English, words may have to be added for proper English understanding.

    The other thing is that Jehovah's Witnesses do not actually deny the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, according to what is written in appendix 6A of the New World Translation Reference Bible (1984). They admit that Jesus is called theos, "god/God," in the New Testament and "mighty God" prophetically at Isaiah 9:6. The objection is not to presenting Jesus as divine or deity, but to the claim that Jesus is God Almighty or the same as the Father in every respect, as Trinitarians claim.

    Being a created being does not detract from divinity in the Hebrew world-view, which would have been the apostle John's primary world-view as well, inasmuch as angels are also created, divine (i.e., spirit) beings. For example, the angels are called "sons of God" and are represented in Hebrew thought and theology as part of a divine counsel. A problem I see with viewing John 1:1 as Trinitarians do, is that it would make the apostle John a Greek philosopher rather than originally an adherent of Judaism -- even the diverse Judaism of the first century.

  • zack
    zack

    JW's do not deny Jesus to be divine. They simply do not believe he and the Father are two beings in one, but rather two distinct and seperate beings and qualitatively different in time, knowledge, and power.

    I think the whole argument is really a distraction. If seen from the point of view of a Christian, the point of one's life is to follow Christ who himself set the pattern to follow the Father. The DOING of the Father's will is what's important and Christ made plain what that will was.

    That being said, JW's are so hung up on this issue that they deny Christ the honor and position that THE FATHER has bestowed on him. So in their being so legalistic about their worship of the Father, they end up not fully honoring the Son and thus fail in that very most important thing--- the doing of the Father's will.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    syntaxo,

    Thanks for you reply.

    I just want to point out that trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is God in the sense that he is the same person as the father. That is where JW's have it wrong. They also do not believe in a "three headed" God like the JW brochure against the trinity brings out. Now, I am not really a trinitarian so maybe someone who is can explain what they really believe about God. But I just wanted to point out what I do know about trinitarians which is that they do not believe Jesus is God. They believe in God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and these three disctinct persons make up the ONE God. Like I said a trinitarian can explain it better. I do not feel I am one at this time.

    I also do not believe Jesus is the father. But I believe he is the eternal divine Son of God and is in the same nature as the father. As such, he is unique compared to the other "sons" of God who are Angels because he was not created but always existed with the father. Jesus as the only Divine Son is also far superior to the Angels and this is biblically taught in Hebrews chapter 1.

    Peace, Lilly

  • avidbiblereader
    avidbiblereader

    LL, thanks for an interesting thread about the Bible, it is refreshing!

    As far as the thought of "a" or not in John 1:1 is of little importance one way or another, Bible translators for whatever their reasons or integrity is not for me to discuss or judge their motive. I think it a shame (for me) within the confines of Christianity to get caught up as I did as a witness for 22 years of trying to say "I am right", "I have the truth".

    I now prefer to stick to a much simpler form of Christianity, trying to stay focused on the things "to me" that are undisputable, there is a God, He gave His Son, try to live with the Holy Spirit directing my thinking, actions, conduct, motives and attitude, realizing I am imperfect and I need the sacrifice of His Son to cleanse me in His eyes and standards and have complete faith in that ransom. Whether I am right or not on doctinal matters is not of importance to me anymore. I try to stay more on the leadings of the Holy Spirit in my belief (which is centered and Only on the Bible and not man made writings) and conduct and realize that none of us have the whole picture anymore than the Bible writers as Paul said in Romans 3:4-18.---NONE OF US!!!!!!!!!!!

    We are all wrong on certain things and have to wait on God to reveal the whole picture to us, it is not important to His Glorification or our Salvation. I dont think anyone or organization has it completely right and many have lost focus or attention to the more important issues.

    God deserves to be praised no matter our outcome, faith in Him and His Son is utmost importance, live a life that is worthy or believing He knows best and doing it because of Love of God and not Fear. This life is transitory, our accomplishments, our careers mean very little unless we feel and believe that we have God's favor with our loved ones through His provisions of His Son who died for us. These to "me' are the important things, I now try to live my life as Christ said, "if your eye is SIMPLE your whole body will be bright" Christianity from its founder was always simple, it is man who has made it complicated with an ulteria motive. Christ never was concerned about himself or whether he was right, it was all about His Father and the praise that He deserved.

    When it comes down to it, we as humans mean very little in the whole sceme of things. The scripture says that "all of mankind are no more than an exhulation to God" or "dust on the scales".

    With respect and peace,abr

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    avidbiblereader,

    You put that so well and I totally agree!

    I sometimes like these little "debates" on scripture but like you so beautifully brought out, the more important thing is relying on God and his Spirit because we simply do not have all the answers. And if anyone says they can fully understand and translate the entire bible, they are either lying or misleading themselves.

    Thanks for your input. I also find these discussions refreshing, especially if they remain civil and open minded. I really do like to get others views on scripture. You will find that although I can "debate" fairly fiercly sometimes, I am still very open minded and believe I could very well be wrong. In the end our Bible interpretation only matters to ourselves anyway. I am sure you will agree that love and mercy are more important than bible "head" knowlege. So, thanks again. Peace, Lilly

  • avidbiblereader
    avidbiblereader

    Lovelylil, thank you and I too absolutely enjoy discussing the scriptures for upbuilding and not for arguing or trying to exonerate myself, it is refreshing to talk to others about the Bible. I would enjoy PMing each other on Biblical thoughts for the purpose of "sharpening oneself"

    And if anyone says they can fully understand and translate the entire bible, they are either lying or misleading themselves.

    The kingdom belongs to those who are childlike and you are right on with your view. Arrogant people or self serving like to portray themselves as all knowing, that should be our first sign that they are not like Christ who had no problem saying he didn't understand everything and was more than willing to submit to his Father in every way.

    Thanks for your input. I also find these discussions refreshing, especially if they remain civil and open minded. I really do like to get others views on scripture. You will find that although I can "debate" fairly fiercly sometimes, I am still very open minded and believe I could very well be wrong. In the end our Bible interpretation only matters to ourselves anyway. I am sure you will agree that love and mercy are more important than bible "head" knowlege. So, thanks again. Peace, Lilly

    Again you hit the nail on the head, cant add to that, well put,

    abr

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    abr,

    feel free to pm me anytime and we can exchange emails if you want. I'd love to have more disussions on the Bible if you are up for it? Peace, Lilly

  • avidbiblereader
    avidbiblereader

    Count on it, thanks abr

  • bite me
    bite me

    I like using multiple versions this way I can see and judge for myself on which one I feel I should go for. All that say of why verses were "left out" of todays Bibles because it wasn't in older manuscripts. I am not going to knock that or deny it, but because the KJV has it NKJV I'm going to go with it. Sure if it is not found in other modern translations I go to the NKJV or KJV and see what I am missing.

    Individuals who use the NWT did you ever wonder what was missing when you saw that little -- when a verse was not placed because "it did not belong". did you go to another bible to see? Where you forbidden to look at another bible? Sorry for the questions, I'm currious.

    Thanks

  • Raphael
    Raphael

    It is interesting to note that it is not only JW's that believe Michael The Archangel is Jesus , many Evangelical Christians also believe that this is another title of Jesus, I stand to be corrected but even Billy Graham holds this view.

    the Baptist evangelist Charles Spurgeon [10] and the Presbyterian Commentary author Matthew Henry, [11] who believe that the Archangel Michael is not an angel but is instead the uncreated, divine Son of God. In this view "archangel" means "head of the angels" rather than "head angel," and is a title similar to "Prince of the host." (Daniel 8:11

    Personally I believe that Michael the Archangel , does have reference to Jesus and that this in no way diminishes his deity , but affirms it - Jesus has the power to become whatever he needs to to . In some way it is similar to Prince Charles or the Queen , who both hold numerous titles including military titles and are considered heads of various organisations , yet still remain Royalty .I dont think we should get too hung up on this issue , ultimately we will only know for certain , when Christ returns - and all things are reveled. It is not an issue that effect s salvation- having a relationship with God the father and Jesus does !

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