Who is Robert Johnson and his WTS/UN Connection

by hawkaw 31 Replies latest watchtower scandals

hawkaw

deleted as per my post below
AMNESIAN

......extremely bright ........ eh .....
Nice guy ..... eh ....... compassionate .... eh ...
If he is so nice and compassionate and in a position of power, why is he letting little Children needlessly bleed to death?
Compassionate people don't let little children needlessly die and put little children ahead of a corporation.

Slow yo' roll, Hawk,
Climb off your high horse. Am I mistaken or did you post somewhere around here that you were never a JW? If true, no matter what efforts you've contributed to this UN-NGO thing, you have absolutely no (as in nada, zip, zilch, zero) clue about being a JW, much less about struggling to balance your conscience against your desire to believe that the organization represents Jehovah.
So what, we're lying about the kind of person we perceived RP to be? We're fans, groupies of his and cannot see how wicked RP is?
Get over yourself. I know this UN thing is your Rose Parade float, but, I'm telling you the man I knew and I'm no chump in the character judging department. You've provided nothing in the way of evidence that dispels that for me. I can't defend who he is today cause I don't still know him, but I do know that, at their core, most adults have a harder time passing a kidney stone than changing who they are.
Surely, in your lather against the WTS (for whatever mysterious reason a never-been-a-JW has such!), you're not so naive as to suppose that anyone, even WTS loyalists, perceives his world and lives his life from a purely black or white perspective. RP may be a rotten, sellout scoundrel for the WTS by now. Otoh, he might be a godly, ethical man who is deeply conflicted and wishes for the organization (and himself) a way out of its own miseries and missteps.
Tell me, have you so investigated your employer that you confidently endorse its integrity in all matters crucial to you? Do you continue to work for it because you are convinced of that integrity?
Geez. Give me an intercoursing break.
-AMNESIAN
AlanF

To Room215:
: If I recall, you recounted on a posting some time ago that you met with him to talk about errors in one of the Society's published defenses of creationism. Are you basing you impressions on that meeting?
Not at all. I'm basing them on subsequent information I've received from and about Peloyan -- not always on a friendly basis. Certain of my contacts know Peloyan and other WTS officials rather well, and know how they think.
: It seems to me that most of the JW writers are fairly liberal and that there's been an ongoing antagonism between that camp and the Service Department and its apparatchiks that goes back decades. Is that how you see it?
In general I do, although nothing in Watchtower-land is that black and white. Some Writing Dept. people are hard-ass morons, and some Service Dept. people are fine men despite years of adverse training. The best I can say is that I perceive a trend towards what you describe.
To Charles (chasson):
Thanks for the information. I think that many things within Watchtower evolve this way. Often it's not due to initiatives from above, but due to those "on high" adopting what the rank & file are already doing. The Kingdom Hall "quickbuild" arrangement is a good example.
To MadApostate:
: So, based on the "Library Card" theory, what was "so important, essential, necessary" about gaining access to the UN Library that the WTS consciously was willing to sacrifice its core principles and become a "PR Lackey" for Satan's Beast?
Nothing. Nothing at all. Your misunderstanding here is in thinking that Watchtower is a monolithic entity. It is not. Only by understanding the wierd social and hidden organizational structure can one really understand how screwy Bethel really is. For example, it is a matter of pride in the Writing Dept. that no one aside from one's supervisor and oneself know what writing project one is working on. It is a faux pas even to ask another Staff member what he is doing. I have no idea how such an asinine culture could arise -- it is simply a fact that it exists. This fanatical devotion to secrecy is behind a lot of the whackiness we see in the Watchtower, and I'm fairly sure that it is behind the fact that relatively few Bethelites knew any more about the Society's UN connection than your average Dub-on-the-street does. Given this, and given Harry Peloyan's myopia and lack of ethical sense, and of course the lack of ethics of Peloyan's boss, GB member Lloyd Barry, it's no wonder that they might approve and then run with a suggestion from their 'employee' Aulicino that they obtain NGO status. They simply don't believe the "wild beast" claptrap fed to the JW masses, and therefore they don't take it into consideration in doing their everyday jobs.
So in the minds of those responsible for the NGO fiasco, there was no trade. They simply gave the Society's "core principles" no consideration because they do not hold to them.
: We have to give the WTS sufficient credit to have hoped for at least an even trade.
Again this is thinking that "the WTS" is monolithic. It is far from it. It appears to be monolithic on the surface, but inside it is splintered.
: A Library Card wasn't "worth" what they gave up. However, "status" as a UN NGO PARTNER, which could be used in a global plan to "appear" mainstream, so as to "work" the system to gain access to the then opening communist bloc countries was more in line as an even swap.
I agree. However, I think that this is more of an evolutionary development. Watchtower leaders are simply not bright enough to plan this sort of thing out.
: To say that the responsible WTS parties were numbskulls, who didn't know or care about the ramifications of "association", is to ignore the fact that not only did the WTS comply with NGO criteria and responsibilities, but the tone of WT and AW articles re the UN had already started to change prior to 1991, seemingly to prepare material and a "tract record" necessary to be submitted with the NGO Application.
Far from ignoring these facts, saying that "the responsible WTS parties" did not care about the relevant facts takes full account of what sort of men they are, as I described above.
: The "Library Card" theory also requires one to believe that it was "purely coincidental" that paperwork for the WTS's UN "association" and AIDAFRIQUE's establishment occurred essentially at the very same time.
On that I don't have enough information to have developed a strong opinion.
: Added after Chassons's post: Who knows who this French Doctor is or what his connections are within the Borg? For a r&f JW to start up an international relief organization to serve international JWs, without involvement of the WTS hierarchy, doesn't make JWsense.
I agree. Evolution may be being demonstrated here.
: I still think that the circumstantial evidence points to "a plan". Who had the original idea and when, or when did the GB sign on, I don't know. BUT, at some point this became GB sanctioned strategy to sacrifice religious principle for marketing purposes.
This is a good theory if you assume that WTS leaders have any brains, but they don't. At least, not so's I can see. Rather, they react to events. They've certainly demonstrated this in spades in reacting stupidly to almost everything thrown their way in the child molestation issue. Let's face it: because they think that God is on their side, and that God is actively defending them in mysterious ways, they're complacent. Complacent men make serious mistakes. We've seen plenty of those, and we're going to see plenty more.
AlanF
hawkaw

Amesian,
I have deleted this post as per my posting below.
hawk
chasson

: Added after Chassons's post: Who knows who this French Doctor is or what his connections are within the Borg? For a r&f JW to start up an international relief organization to serve international JWs, without involvement of the WTS hierarchy, doesn't make JWsense.
I agree. Evolution may be being demonstrated here.

I will try to have more information, but for example a JW in Paris has build an association to adopt some African's children without connection with the french's bethel.
Bye
Charles
MadApostate

To AlanF:
Thanks for "all" your comments and observations.
You are correct that I was never a Bethelite, and everything I know about Bethel goings-on is second hand info at best. Thus, I'll not attempt to dispute most of what you say.
However, I do have one OVERWHELMING bit of evidence that the "Library Card" theory is wrong.
That is, the "Library Card" theory is THE WTS's EXPLANATION OF WHAT OCCURRED!!!
The very fact that the "LC" explanation was "test marketed" in England, only a few days after the facts became publicly known, tells me that such explanation has a small chance of being accurate. Just look at the "spin" put out to rebut the "abuse" publicity.
AMNESIAN

I didn't say he was a wicked person. You did.

Read what I actually said.
You said he was "compassionate", not me. My point on "compassion" is simple.
In your world lots of things seem simple. At least the ones you bring to JWD. I envy you and your world. And I don't mean that facetiously.
Compassionate people in positions of power don't let innocent little children needlessly die.
I have no desire or intention of taking issue with such an emotionally-weighted, sanctimonious battle cry.
What I will say is that in your zeal to slather everything and everyone related to the WTS with the same venomous brush, you tend to get a bit sloppy. Time and again I read here by those who claim to be in the know that there are those in Brooklyn who are mightily conflicted in their loyalties and consciences over the dire direction(s) this organization has embarked on. Until confronted with indicting evidence to the contrary, I am able to believe that the RP Johnson I knew many years ago just may be one of them. Break it down into small pieces and see if you can get that.
Oh BTW I completely understand my employer and if he/she steps out of line I have followed my ethics under my Professional licence and done what has been needed to be done.
Bully for you. I don't suppose, then, that your employer happens to hold the deed to absolutely every aspect, real and imagined, of your and your wife's lives---past, present, and any future---, everything from when and whether you eat to how you will survive in your pension-less old age? Before you take flight from there, I do not, do not in any way, feel that such circumstances justify a knowing and willful violation of human rights and ethics and decency. I am just saying that some are able to imagine how good and decent men and women can find themselves unwittingly to have gradually become mired and trapped on the wrong side of complex issues. (Though regarding a much less egregious circumstance, one of my favorite movies, "Quiz Show" comes to mind---check it if you don't already know it) Again, not all of us are blessed to live our lives in the simple, black and white world you apparently inhabit.
As for hating the WTS. I don't hate the WTS but I dislike the people who knowingly know what is going on in doctrines like in the blood doctrine. They know it is wrong but are letting it continue. That is culpable homicide. Ye sthe guy is a nice guy and yes you are right about the problems in being in a cult. But these people in positions of power, nice or not, need to be held accountable for their actions.
Regardless of who RP was or is, if he is in fact now one of the Brooklyn crime bosses, either by his own premeditated decisions and/or actions or by mere compliance out of his own fear and/or self-preservation instincts, he is still morally reprehensible and must be held accountable. That said, I doubt it would muffle your thundering JWD ovation if you were to take a more balanced approach when dealing with specific WTS individuals by name as opposed to no-harm-no-foul vilifying of the WTS "monolith" when making such vile accusations. At least until you get the goods on the individual under investigation.
-AMNESIAN
hawkaw

Listen Amensian,
I was out of line. You are right I should wait and conduct a proper investigation of the "individual" prior to slaming him anymore. Much like what I did with the blood doctrine that clearly shows there is culpable homicide going on here. Who is responsible. I don't know but I know it is hurting this organization and its members.
One would think that Mr. Johnston must have known the score when he signed up as the alternative representative and he may have thought it just wasn't a big deal even though 1,000s in Malawi Africa may seem to differ. But you are right. One must wait and get all the facts prior to unleashing a serious accusation.
I apologize to you and the board for sounding "strawman". I should have waited, like you said for the facts of this specific individual prior to slaming him.
As for simple black and white thinking. No I don't think in black and white. Never have. Sometimes I just don't have a lot of time to give or read things like last nights' post or this morning's post - Yet it is still no excuse as to what I said. But I am willing to listen. If I make a mistake I will admit it as I have here. I have listened to you and agree.
But I am not on any high horse or want thunderous applause. I would prefer people like you recognizing, gaining and enjoying freedom and honesty any day of the week over over applause.
Please accept my apologizes Amesian and you too, Mr. Johnston.
One other thing, Amnesian - I know of only one other person who uses the word "monolith"
hawk
Edit...
I forgot to add that I will delete my above noted posts do to my error.
one

listen to this echo here, no one is totally wrong.
MA said:
I still think that the circumstantial evidence points to "a plan". Who had the original idea and when, or when did the GB sign on, I don't know. BUT, at some point this became GB sanctioned strategy to sacrifice religious principle for marketing purposes
---------------------
one said:
MadApostate,
I agree with you 99%, it was a plan.
It all started when Fred Franz was losing power due to age. All his predictions did not come true and they became more realistic. Economic and politics was a good game to play then.
-----------
Alan F said to MA:
This is a good theory if you assume that WTS leaders have any brains, but they don't. At least, not so's I can see. Rather, they react to events.
---------
and now i say:
a plan can be conceived colletive, (monolithic or framgmented one way or another), or individually. The "brain" does not have to be very efficient, in fact the plan can fail, as it happens in many cases, due to lack of "brains".
AMNESIAN

Listen Amensian,
I was out of line. You are right I should wait and conduct a proper investigation of the "individual" prior to slaming him anymore. Much like what I did with the blood doctrine that clearly shows there is culpable homicide going on here. Who is responsible. I don't know but I know it is hurting this organization and its members.

My own horror knows no bounds at the thought that I at one time held the no-blood doctrine as scriptural. I often wonder what accountability any of us misguided souls may suffer before Jehovah for having taught and ensnared others, to say nothing of the deaths to which such teachings have contributed as a result of the WTS's botched interpretation and criminal arrogance. Are there some of the heavyweights in Brooklyn who know this doctrine is in error and still support it? It's nearly unfathomable and yet most of what I've come to learn about this organization is unfathomable.
One would think that Mr. Johnston must have known the score when he signed up as the alternative representative and he may have thought it just wasn't a big deal even though 1,000s in Malawi Africa may seem to differ. But you are right. One must wait and get all the facts prior to unleashing a serious accusation.

RP is very bright/thoughtful and, even in defense of the person I recall him to be, I cannot seriously construct any scenario whereby he was not fully cognizant of the extreme seriousness such a course represents. Though it certainly places him in no better or exonerating light, I would more easily wonder if he has not found himself---older and with far fewer options than even 10 years ago--- promoted to a place wherein he's succumbed to deafening fears and insecurity that, of necessity, drown out the bellow of his conscience. I don't know. Like I said above, I've often wondered how the man I perceived, knowing now what he must surely know, can still be involved with this organization.
I apologize to you and the board for sounding "strawman". I should have waited, like you said for the facts of this specific individual prior to slaming him.
As for simple black and white thinking. No I don't think in black and white. Never have. Sometimes I just don't have a lot of time to give or read things like last nights' post or this morning's post - Yet it is still no excuse as to what I said. But I am willing to listen. If I make a mistake I will admit it as I have here. I have listened to you and agree.

This sounds more like the Hawkaw whose posts in the UN threads I've followed. Thank you for making the effort to hear what I'm saying, even when I'm not saying it as tactfully and respectfully as you or anyone else deserves.
But I am not on any high horse or want thunderous applause. I would prefer people like you recognizing, gaining and enjoying freedom and honesty any day of the week over over applause.

And you will please accept my apology for this jab. In all of your posts in the UN threads, you've been very generous in acknowledging others' comments and contributions and reasonable in your discussions. I was angered in this thread by your suggestions regarding RP and was/am even more hurt and disappointed by the prospect that you might be correct that RP has sold out. I get pissy with each additional step I take toward the total loss of faith in everyone and everything I've known and believed for over half my life. Not your fault, I'm in so very much pain in my life it's become kneejerk on my part.
Please accept my apologizes Amesian and you too, Mr. Johnston.

Thank you for your humility, Hawkaw. It's quite refreshing on this board and I appreciate it more than you know.
One other thing, Amnesian - I know of only one other person who uses the
word "monolith"

You kid. Don't you???
-AMNESIAN

Who is Robert Johnson and his WTS/UN Connection

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