Live radio discussion of dead JW 14 year-old

by Nathan Natas 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    I didn't want to abandon you guys, so to speak, but I had a prior appointment while that discussion was airing.

    Purps, I heard you, and you did great! I was surprised that Mr. Monson didn't know that JWs disfellowship and shun people who take blood transfusions. he is a sincere Catholic and a gentleman who is probably more "tolerant" of JWs than he needs to be. I will be preparing a little information pack for him on the subject of transfusions and shunning.

    It would be good if we can capture that podcast and preserve it for others of our clan who were not able to learn of it it in time.

    Thank you all for rallying to the cause! You guys are AWESOME!

  • purplesofa
  • dinah
    dinah

    Purps, not clickable

  • Tatiana
    Tatiana

    Copy and pasted..........great show. Pasted everywhere I could!!!!!

    I just heard you, purps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good comments!!!! You go girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    We both have a southern accent. I grew up in South Carolina!!!

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    try now

    http://sea.bonnint.net/1130dorihour2.mp3

    sorry, i dont know how to make it clickable!!! weird

  • hubert
    hubert

    Hubert, where you from boy?

    Way up here in New England, Ma'am. Up 'round Boston area, but I spent 4 years in Florida.

    Does that make me a Rebel?

    Hubert

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    hey tat

    *I just heard you, purps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good comments!!!! You go girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    We both have a southern accent. I grew up in South Carolina!!!*

    My accent must really be southern for it to be mentioned so much.


    dinah

    ok, lets duel


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esl2NNOtHQE

    purps

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    During the discussion with radio host Dori Monson in Seattle, the host expressed surprise at the suggestion (by Purps) that one of Jehovah's Witnesses could be disfellowshipped for accepting a blood transfusion.

    I have started a FACT SHEET containing quotes from WATCHTOWER publications relating to this subject, and I wanted to share what I had collected so far. If others wish to contribute the results of their own research, please do. [Note how much things changes from 1958 to 1961.]

    Here it is:

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    Questions from Readers

    • One of Jehovah’s witnesses who claims to be of the anointed remnant recently went to the hospital and took a blood transfusion, voluntarily. Should she be allowed to partake of the emblems of bread and wine at Memorial time?—R. J., United States.

    We, of course, regret with you that this sister who professes to be one of the anointed remnant took a blood transfusion voluntarily during her stay in the hospital. We believe that she did the wrong thing contrary to the will of God. However, congregations have never been instructed to disfellowship those who voluntarily take blood transfusions or approve them. We let the judgment of such violators of God’s law concerning the sacredness of blood remain with Jehovah, the Supreme Judge. The only thing that can be done in the cases of individuals like this is to view them as immature and therefore not capable of taking on certain responsibilities, hence refusing to make certain assignments of service to such ones.

    Since an individual is not disfellowshiped because of having voluntarily taken a blood transfusion or having approved of a dear one’s accepting a blood transfusion, you have no right to bar this sister from the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal. As an anointed member of Christ’s body she is under orders and command by Christ Jesus to partake. Whether she is unfaithful as to what she professes to be by virtue of taking the emblems of the Lord’s Evening Meal is something for Jehovah God to determine himself. His judgment begins at the house of God. It is not for you or anyone serving the Memorial emblems to act as the judge, but to allow the emblems to go to anyone in the audience as these are passed along in the normal manner of letting each one have the opportunity to partake. -- The WATCHTOWER, August 1, 1958, page 478, "Questions From Readers"

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    Questions from Readers

    • In view of the seriousness of taking blood into the human system by a transfusion, would violation of the Holy Scriptures in this regard subject the dedicated, baptized receiver of blood transfusion to being disfellowshiped from the Christian congregation?

    The inspired Holy Scriptures answer yes. About the middle of the first “Christian” century the twelve apostles of Christ met with the other mature representatives of the congregation at Jerusalem to determine what should be the Scriptural requirement for the admission of non-Jews into the Christian congregation. The twelve apostles and other representative men of the Jerusalem congregation as met together on this occasion to decide this vital question were Jews or circumcised proselytes, and, as such, they had been up until Pentecost of A.D. 33 under the prohibition contained in the Mosaic law against eating or drinking the blood of animal creatures. In that Mosaic law at Leviticus 17:10-12 God said to the Jews: “As for any man of the house of Israel or some temporary resident who is residing for a while in your midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people. For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it. That is why I have said to the sons of Israel, ‘No soul of you should eat blood and no temporary resident who is residing for a while in your midst should eat blood.”’

    Those Jewish Christians had now come under the new covenant that had been validated by the pouring out in death of the blood of Jesus Christ, the Mediator between God and men. What, then, was their decision as to the requirements to lie imposed upon Gentile believers for admission into the Christian congregation? The decree setting forth their decision replies: “The apostles and the older brothers to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the nations: Greetings! . . . For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep yourselves free from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things killed without draining their blood and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!” (Acts 15:23-29) Thus for all Christian believers the apostolic decree under the guidance of God’s holy spirit declared that among the things necessary for them was the keeping of themselves free from blood and from things killed without draining their blood. Years later that decision was still in force upon Christians according to Acts 21:25. That decision has never been revoked, because it is God-given and still applies to Christians today who are dedicated, baptized believers, faithfully following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, who was born a Jew over 1900 years ago.

    Under God’s law as mediated by the prophet Moses toward the nation of Israel those Jews or circumcised proselytes who violated God’s prohibition against eating or drinking animal blood were to be cut off from his chosen people. According to the apostolic decree as handed down by that conference in Jerusalem, the Christian congregation was under obligation to do a similar thing toward those who ate or drank animal blood. Blood transfusions were not in vogue in apostolic days. Nevertheless, although the twelve apostles and their fellow members of the Jerusalem congregation may not have had such a thing as the modern blood transfusion in mind, yet the decree handed down by them included such a thing in its scope. The medical profession today admits that blood transfusion is a direct feeding of the blood vessels of the human body with blood from another person or other persons that the practitioner of blood transfusion says is necessary for the survival of the recipient.

    God’s law definitely says that the soul of man is in his blood. Hence the receiver of the blood transfusion is feeding upon a God-given soul as contained in the blood vehicle of a fellow man or of fellow men. This is a violation of God’s commands to Christians, the seriousness of which should not be minimized by any passing over of it lightly as being an optional matter for the conscience of any individual to decide upon. The decree of the apostles at Jerusalem declares: “If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper.” Hence a Christian who deliberately receives a blood transfusion and thus does not keep himself from blood will not prosper spiritually. According to the law of Moses, which set forth shadows of things to come, the receiver of a blood transfusion must be cut off from God’s people by excommunication or disfellowshiping.

    If the taking of a blood transfusion is the first offense of a dedicated, baptized Christian due to his immaturity or lack of Christian stability and he sees the error of his action and grieves and repents over it and begs divine forgiveness and forgiveness of God’s congregation on earth, then mercy should be extended to him and he need not be disfellowshiped. He needs to be put under surveillance and to be instructed thoroughly according to the Scriptures upon this subject, and thereby be helped to acquire strength to make decisions according to the Christian standard in any future cases.

    If, however, he refuses to acknowledge his nonconformity to the required Christian standard and makes the matter an issue in the Christian congregation and endeavors to influence others therein to his support; or, if in the future he persists in accepting blood transfusions or in donating blood toward the carrying out of this medical practice upon others, he shows that he has really not repented, but is deliberately opposed to God’s requirements. As a rebellious opposer and unfaithful example to fellow members of the Christian congregation he must be cut off therefrom by disfellowshiping. Thereby the Christian congregation vindicates itself from any charge of connivance at the infraction of God’s law by a member of the congregation through blood transfusion, and it upholds the proper Christian standard before all the members of the Christian congregation, and keeps itself clean from the blood of all men, even as the apostle Paul did who promulgated to the various Gentile congregations the apostolic decree handed down at Jerusalem.—Acts 20:26. -- The WATCHTOWER, January 15, 1961, pages 63-64, "Questions From Readers"

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    • May a person who takes a blood transfusion be disfellowshiped for it?

    Yes, if it is a deliberate act and there is no repenting over the wrong act and asking of forgiveness of God’s congregation. If it is a first offense and the transgressor sees his error, repents of it and begs forgiveness, he may be put on probation and given careful instruction from the Scriptures on the matter.—P. 64. --The WATCHTOWER, May 1, 1961 pages 284-285 "Do You Remember?"

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    Why Blood Transfusions Are Refused

    ... When transfusions of blood became an issue confronting them, The Watchtower of July 1, 1945, explained at length the Christian view regarding the sanctity of blood. ...Consistent with that understanding of matters, beginning in 1961 any who ignored the divine requirement, accepted blood transfusions, and manifested an unrepentant attitude were disfellowshipped from the congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses. -- Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers Of God's Kingdom" (book)[1993] page 183, 184

    ========

    Another question on the minds of several doctors related to group pressure. What would happen, they wondered, if a Witness wavered and accepted a blood transfusion? Would he be ostracized by the Witness community?

    The response would depend on the actual situation, for disobeying God’s law certainly is a serious matter, something for the congregation’s elders to examine. The Witnesses would want to help any person who has undergone the traumatic experience of life-threatening surgery and who has accepted a transfusion. Doubtless such a Witness would feel very bad and be concerned about his relationship with God. Such a person may need help and understanding. Since the backbone of Christianity is love, the elders would want, as in all judicial cases, to temper firmness with mercy.—Matthew 9:12, 13; John 7:24. -- The WATCHTOWER, February 15, 1997, pages 19, 20 "Bioethics and Bloodless Surgery"

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  • monophonic
    monophonic

    ugh. just listened to the show.

    the biggest problem is the conversation was could a judge 'ok' the decision for a 14 year old to not accept certain health treatment....they made great points about quality of life, etc., so the discussion went way beyond the blood transfusion issue, where it was should've stayed, which bummed me out b/c i was hoping for a little more 'what the hell, he'll be shunned, wait a second', from the radio show host.

    that's the host's fault, he really should've known that and did some research, or had an intern research it before the show. the host flip-flopped on every single phone call it was just pathetic and obvious he's just putting in time as a radio show host until he retires, which i hope is soon b/c i'm so sick of those DJs who still try to sound like rocker DJs from the 70's and 80's.

    i'm very glad the shunning phone call got in there....for him to go on about how he wasn't sure, but i don't doubt it.....makes me wish i could smack someone across the airwaves.

    the focus should've switched to keep on the case itself, the real ramifications of the kid accepting a transfusion in his faith, and not have gone to generalities re: leukemia, suffering, etc.

    smooth voice and good talk show skills are two completely different things.

    i feel like i just listened to someone scrapping their nails on a chalkboard when i played the podcast.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    mono


    I guess every little bit of media and exposure helps and using it to our full advantage is all we can do right now.


    purps

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