Comments You Will Not Hear at the WT Study (12/2 CONSCIENCE)

by V 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Borgia
    Borgia

    Thanks for your comments on this WT drivel. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts.

    When I googled the part:

    denunciations of oppression, murder, treachery, and falsehood, the same injunctions of kindness to the aged, the young, and the weak,

    I was reverted to http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1565

    The quote the WT has done is only partial. It also points to the following qualities: The answer [to the claim that cultures radically differ on their moral codes] is that this is a lie—a good, solid, resounding lie. If a man will go into a library and spend a few days with the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics he will soon discover the massive unanimity of the practical reason in man. From the Babylonian Hymn to Samos, from the Laws of Manu, the Book of the Dead, the Analects, the Stoics, the Platonists, from Austrialism aborigines... he will collect the same triumphantly monotonous denunciations of oppression, murder, treachery, and falsehood, the same injunctions of kindness to the aged, the young, and the weak, of almsgiving and impartiality and honesty... There are, of course, differences. There are even blindnesses in particular cultures—just as there are savages who cannot count up to twenty. But the pretence that we are presented with a mere chaos—though no outline of universally accepted value shows through—is simply false.

    Why would they leave out the latter 3 qualities?

    The writer of the article claims that the above is quoted from C.S.Lewis' book: “The Poison of Subjectivism,” 77.

    But as to the link with the chronicles of Narnia:(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis)

    Universal morality

    One of the main theses in Lewis' apologia is that there is a common morality known throughout humanity. In the first five chapters of Mere Christianity Lewis discusses the idea that people have a standard of behaviour to which they expect other people to adhere. This standard has been called Universal Morality or Natural Law. Lewis claims that all over the earth people know about this law and that they break it. He goes on to claim that there must be someone or something behind such a universal set of principles. (Lindskoog 2001b, p. 144)

    These then are the two points that I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can not really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in. (Lewis 1952, p. 21)

    Lewis also portrays Universal Morality in his works of fiction. In The Chronicles of Narnia he describes Universal Morality as the "Deep magic" which everyone knew. (Lindskoog 2001b, p. 146)

    Cheers

    Borgia

  • bobld
    bobld

    Good review.Look,GB you better be thankful for those who risked their lives for YOUR FREEDOM during WW two.You didn't do the right thing you cowards.You should examine you conscience before you give any advice.You talk about how environment influances ones life.Get out of your luxury apartments and get a job with minimum education cleaning toilets like you keep telling your slaves.Get out in the real world.You people are really sick you need psychiatric help big time and not feeding this garbage to honest people.

    Bob

  • blondie
    blondie

    So far I will be getting the 2008 WT Study copy in hard copy form when the congregations in the US get them.

    Paragraph 1,2

    The WTS speaks out of both sides of their mouth. First they have told the rank and file that people today are "fierce" and "without love of goodness" yet give the example of a nonIsraelite (Samaritan) who showed kindness to someone who considered him condemned by God. Do jws think that non-jws are worthy? No, only of eternal destruction soon at Armageddon. Kind non-jws along with "fierce" ones.

    *** w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4)

    Paragraph 3,

    The tendency is to help others, even at personal cost

    Unless you have to drive out of your way to pick up an older sister, unless you have to miss the big game, to study with someone who only has that time open. How many jws say they would die for their brother or sister, who will not LIVE for them, inviting them over for a meal knowing they are depressed and have no family to associate with, or help them financially when they lose their job because their schedule interferes with the meetings, or run to the drugstore to get their medications when they are sick at home.....

    Paragraphs 5 through 8

    While admitting that non-jws have a sense of fairness and live by a general code of right and wrong, these same people are condemned by the WTS and its members to still be liable to eternal destruction, including their minor children, for the sin of not being a jw. And the WTS does not expect that every person will get an "individual" witness yet they will still be destroyed forever.

    *** w00 1/15 p. 13 par. 17 "Keep on the Watch" ***Fifth, we see a global preaching work being accomplished, which Jesus said would take place just before the end of this system. Jesus stated: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14) Today, that prophecy is in the course of fulfillment on an unprecedented scale. True, untouched territories still exist, and it may be that in Jehovah’s due time, a large door leading to greater activity will open. (1 Corinthians 16:9) Nevertheless, the Bible does not state that Jehovah will wait until every individual on earth has received a personal witness. Rather, the good news must be preached to Jehovah’s satisfaction. Then the end will come.—Compare Matthew 10:23.

    Paragraphs 9 to 13

    Conscience speak beforehand and after. Did David have pangs of conscience after he had Uriah killed and committed adultery with his wife or was it only until Nathan the prophet revealed his sin did he have regret? David prayed for the life of his illegitimate son but did he pray for forgiveness for taking Uriah's life?

    The WTS says that it is improper to confess one's sins to a priest, yet tells its members they must confess to the elders and then says it is not the same thing.

    While the WTS says that things are a "conscience" matter, they also say that "its message may seriously mislead us." Yes, our "associates" may mislead us. Who do jws associate with, who is misleading them, what general culture environment influences them, certainly not non-jws?

    Paragraphs 14 to 19

    Notice once again that there is little mention of Jesus. jws are to draw close to God not Christ. Notice that Joseph fled from adultery without a law, yet his brother Judah committed fornication with what he thought was a temple prostitute yet the WTS excuses his sin because there was not law.

    Draw closer to God and be like him, or follow Christ's footsteps closely?

    Be with devoted Christians--really be only with jws the only real Christians per the WTS.

    fellow Christians--certainly not non-jws doomed to eternal destruction along with their minor children in the near future per the WTS. And all jws long for this destruction to be soon.

    Blondie

  • V
    V
    Blondie: Notice that Joseph fled from adultery without a law, yet his brother Judah committed fornication with what he thought was a temple prostitute yet the WTS excuses his sin because there was not law.

    Good one Blondie, thanks for the comments.

    The story goes like this: Both Judah has three sons. The first two die without a male heir. So Judah sends the wife of his first son (Tamar) to his third son, but fails to "give" Tamar in marriage...

    Do you see how Isrealite women get passed around like cattle?

    ...Since Tamar isn't getting laid, she dresses up like a prosititute so that Judah will hire her. The whole plan was to get an heir in Judah's line....

    Next on the Jerry Springer Show!?

    ...Judah takes the bait and Tamar has twin sons. Here is the Watchtower's defence:



    Not knowing who Tamar was, Judah had relations with her. For her favors, she shrewdly obtained tokens from him, and by these she later proved that she had become pregnant by him. When the truth came out, Judah did not blame her but humbly said: “She is more righteous than I am, for the reason that I did not give her to Shelah my son.” And most fittingly, “he had no further intercourse with her.”—Genesis 38:26.

    Judah acted wrongly in that he did not give Tamar to his son Shelah as promised. He also had relations with a woman he thought was a temple prostitute. This was contrary to God’s purpose, which was for a man to have sexual relations only in the marriage arrangement. (Genesis 2:24) In reality, though, Judah did not have relations with a harlot. Rather, he unwittingly took the place of his son Shelah in performing brother-in-law marriage and thus fathered legal offspring.

    As for Tamar, her course was not an immoral one. Her twin sons were not considered to be the sons of fornication. When Boaz of Bethlehem took the Moabitess Ruth in brother-in-law marriage, the elders of Bethlehem spoke favorably of Tamar’s son Perez, saying to Boaz: “May your house become like the house of Perez, whom Tamar bore to Judah, from the offspring that Jehovah will give you out of this young woman.” (Ruth 4:12) Perez is also listed among the ancestors of Jesus Christ.—Matthew 1:1-3; Luke 3:23-33. -WT 2004 1/15 p. 30

  • SirNose586
    SirNose586

    I caused a big trainwreck in the propaganda study last night. I took exception to the WT's argument that "evolution can't explain a conscience" yet later on, they establish that cultures establish their own standards of right and wrong. I told them that it was a sociologist's task to explain that, and not evolution. Apparently I had gone against the grain and they were very flustered.

    If anyone makes the comment that these two scientists are creationists, then this WILL be a comment that you hear at the WT study! At least at mine!

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    [Footnote] * Similarly, Owen Gingerich , research professor of astronomy at Harvard University, wrote: "Altruism may well pose a question without ... a scientific answer derived from observation of the animal kingdom. It just might be that the more convincing answer lies in another arena and has to do with those God-given qualities of humanness which include conscience."

    Why do they quote an astronomers opinion about evolution/psychology?

  • B_Deserter
    B_Deserter

    What I thought was funny about this week's article is that the second half thoroughly disproves the first. First, we're taught about our amazing conscience that only could have come from God, then we're told that conscience, without the right "training" (i.e. brainwashing) is a dangerous thing. So which is it? Do we have an inborn conscience or don't we? You can't have it both ways.

    I also commented for the first time in a while today. Someone said that Saul was hanging with bad associates and they ruined his conscience and that's why he allowed the stoning of Steven. I had to respond to that in a public forum, so I mentioned how Saul was actually following the Law of Moses, so his conscience WAS Bible-trained as Leviticus clearly states that "the entire assembly shall stone [a blasphemer] to death." Saul WAS doing the right thing, according to him, even according to the LAW that JEHOVAH supposedly wrote down. They talk about him like he was some sort of evil person before converting to Christianity when at the time there were NO Christian scriptures, only the Hebrew ones, and NO Christian laws.

  • Flowerpetal
    Flowerpetal

    Thanks V for conducting the WT study this week!

    Q18) Despite possible past influences, what can we do to improve the reliability of our conscience?

    18) What about the environmental molding of our conscience? We may have been influenced by the thinking and actions of our relatives and the general environment in which we grew up. Thus, the message from our conscience may have been muffled or distorted. It spoke with the "accent" of others around us. Granted, we cannot change our past; however, we can be resolved to choose associates and an environment that will affect our conscience in a good way. A key step is regularly being with devoted Christians who have long tried to be like their Father. Congregation meetings, including association before and after them, provide excellent opportunities for that. We can note the Bible-based thinking and reactions of fellow Christians, including their readiness to listen as their conscience echoes God's outlook and ways. Over time, this can help us to harmonize our own conscience with Bible principles, bringing us closer to God's image. When we attune our inner voice to our Father's principles and yield to the good influence of fellow Christians, our conscience will be more reliable and we will be more inclined to listen to what it says. -Isaiah 30:21.

    When I was associating, I can honestly say I didn't like many of the people at the KH. How can you try to associate with people you don't like and have to see them at least two times a week, maybe three if they were in your bookstudy? It makes life quite lonely and guarded. And btw, I didn't hear much "spiritual" conversations going on before or after the meetings in order to harmonize my "conscience with Bible principles."

    Looking forward to Richie Rich next week.

  • zack
    zack

    Thanks for the thread and your efforts. Most JW's don't have a clue about the identity or leanings of Lewis or any other apologists.

    I am glad I don't have to sit through this ignorance.

    The Wt Study could be a celebration of life, a time where like minded members share in ecpressions of faith and love and solidarity. Instead, I reflect on the fact that the WT

    study is really a celebration of ignorance and bigotry and a reinforcement of what is hateful and hatefilled. It brings out the worst sentiments in people as evidenced by the vitriolic comments members spew against anyone and anything that is not WTS approved all the while having not a clue about what they are hating or why they are hating.

    Religion is evil. And this little sect is no exception.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    C.S. Lewis, the author of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe

    Nice catch.

    So David cut up Saul's coat a bit. Yeah, that just racks a conscience.

    Later, David steals a wife, kills a husband, and covers up the crime. You've come a long way, David!

    Yeah, I hate the way WTS uses David. From my understanding and studies, he was a throne
    usurper, he stole the kingdom, stole the wife, murdered, and slept with sexy virgins once he was
    an impotent old man unable to perform with his wives, saying he needed to stay warm or something.
    I hope I can sleep with virgin women after I can no longer perform, but with viagra around now, they
    might get a surprise.

    The Watchtower has been laying a coat of primer, explaining how our conscience is proof of God, causes altruistic behavior, and that unbelievers even have one.

    But that's not enough. Now your conscience could be dangerous.

    Priceless point you made here at para. 10-11.

    Joseph knew God's standard for marriage–one man for one woman...

    Did he? His father Jacob had two wives who were sisters. His great-grandfather Abraham knocked up his slave girl when his barren wife got too old. Abraham's nephew Lot got both his daughters pregnant! .

    And he had likely heard of how Abimelech felt...

    "Likely" means "we are making this up."

    Excellent commentary on para. 16. Joseph had some pretty lousy examples IF he knew
    God's standard was "one man for one woman."

    Abimelech was the Philistine King whom Isaac lied to about being married to Rebekah, instead calling her his sister. Isaac was afraid he would be killed for being married to a hot chick. Because of this Rebekah was almost raped. The Watchtower uses this story to validate lying for your beliefs.

    If what Isaac did was okay, why couldn't dubs in Malawi just take the card?

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