Ok, this lad was raised by abusive/neglectful meth addicted parents till he was 10. He spent summers with his aunt. He was tossed between friends and such and not able to read till he was out of the earliest grades. So, at ten he lives with auntie witnoid. She fills his head with a new world where he wont have to put up with his parents crap and all will be hunky dory, except he must please Jahover to get there. He wants to please her, Jehover and all the people in the hall. SO, of course he knew what his decision was and came across as "mature" and sure of his decision. The judge should have gotten a psych to find out if this wasn't just a case of an abused kid trying to please the only stable environment he ever knew. It pisses me off that he decided that he was qualified to determine this boys "maturity" and mental state. Jackass. Is it me or do all "Judges" turn out to be idiots? Discuss... W.Once
Why no psych evaluation for Dennis Lindberg? Who does judge think he is?
by Wasanelder Once 10 Replies latest watchtower medical
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purplesofa
My point too, is that the judge did not have enough knowledge of the religion to make a sound decision....
like that the boy likely would face disfellowshipping/shunning had he decided to get the transfusion
purps -
Wasanelder Once
I understand your point Purps, but was he baptized? I don't know that he was. If not, then it might not have played a role in the whole situation though the pressure to conform would be multiplied by the threats existence to those who were faithful. Heard you on the radio... nice... will be doing a video based on the radio show. Will be using your words, hope you don't mind. W.Once
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Amber Rose
I wondered about this also. Just how did the judge decide the boy was mature enough to make his own decisions? Because he presented himself well in front of the judge for a few moments? Was the boy given a crash course in courtroom acting by the HLC?
I remember being a kid, going over "no-blood" information and articles. They always had stories of kids who were able to impress courts with thier level of maturity and avoided blood. I always hoped that would never happen to me. Would I try to act slightly immature and have the court force me to have blood (oh, darn, they are going to save my life against my wishes). But how raging mad would my mom be that I wasn't a shining example of a perfect JW kid - then I would wish that I was dead. Fortunately, I never had to face the situation.
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Nathan Natas
Yes, Dennis was baptized.
What that means is that had he accepted the transfusion and not demonstrated sufficient "remorse" and "repentance" he would have been subject to shunning from the only stability he has ever known, which was his JW aunt. Can we say "conditional love"?
There is a pretty interesting discussion of the matter at this site: http://blogs.king5.com/archives/2007/11/a_matter_of_fai.html
It is likely that there will not be a lot of continuing discussion, since A) the poor kid is dead now and B) the Dubs who "argued" did a nice job of showing how ignorant they were, so they've shut up and gone home.
But there are some very interesting comments made by a person who claiims to have been rather close to Dennis - a poster who uses the nickname "Dennis' friend". This person tells us
EVERYONE - please read this. I am an adult, non-JW, Dennis' friend and I need to share HIS words he told a trusted non-JW adult in private while the cloud of JW's normally surrounding him left his side for a few moments. This initial conversation began when he was first admitted to Children’s - This adult asked Dennis his course of treatment. He explained the alternative methods the doctors were going to use BUT in the event they were unsuccessful, he was willing to consider a transfusion since he trusted his doctors. A week later, with early signs of heart failure and due to his low blood count from treatment and impending death, surprisingly, he rejected the doctor's concern that a transfusion was the only course that could save his life. When this trusted non-JW adult reached Dennis again and asked why he refused the transfusion, he simply replied, "there are more people who want me to support my faith". For those who had the opportunity to follow Dennis' web page before his aunt cancelled it, JW's from around the world were encouraging just this. One JW even wrote that Dennis was not just a JW member, but an actual Witness. Yes, Dennis did choose eternal life - he was not coerced by "A" third party as Judge John M. Meyer stated at the hearing, which is what the State attempted to prove....Dennis was, in fact, coerced by "Hundreds" of JW brothers and sisters. This issue should not be about a religious belief, but rather about a system that supports a 14 year old child is mature enough to choose between life and death - when they are not even allowed to drive, vote, or enlist in the military. Children are influenced by the immediate people in their life - they just want to please those they love.
I'm wondering if his aunt -who is named in the blog - had a life insurance policy on him. -
purplesofa
these are some questions I asked on another thread.
something that is really bugging me about this court thing
is
WHY
was the hearing not sooner? Obviously if he was diagnosed with leukemia a few weeks earlier the blood transfusion issue should have come up right away.
Where did the hearing take place at?
The kid died a few hours after the hearing. Or was it a few hours after the judges decision? Have I got that correct?
Did the judge go to the hospitol? -
purplesofa
Nathan,
thanks for posting from Denis friend.
He brings it in reality and is very sad.
The pressure for that young boy must have been unreal.
Leslie -
nelly136
they all use the same preprogrammed parroted speel, and they always liken transfusion to rape, Dennis was programmed to think he would be unclean/violated, just a couple of news items i picked out of search, they all say the same thing.
Rape is the blood 'buzzword', the patients use it, the borg spokesmen use it, the watchtower site and literature use it, unfortunately the judge was not aware of the programming involved or the pressure that would have been on Dennis to avoid being 'raped'
as a blood transfusion is classed as eating surely a better term would be "force fed"
THE Master of the Coombe Women's Hospital has strongly rejected a female Jehovah's Witness' description of a blood transfusion administered to her at the hospital against her wishes, after she suffered a massive, haemorrhage as being "like a rape".
Dr Chris Fitzpatrick said the woman had given an "inaccurate representation'' of what had happened to her after she experienced massive blood loss following the birth of her baby boy at the Coombe Women's hospital on September 21, 2006.
He was told the woman had said that during the transfusion process, people were around her terrifying her, that she wanted to fight the medical staff off before the transfusion was given but was unable to, that she was held and sedated before the transfusion was administered and had described the experience as like a rape.
He said the family appreciated the help of the doctors, but could "never consent" to the transfusion. Jay's mother said her son told her he felt "violated, raped" and that his privacy had been invaded. "It is like a nightmare at home because they have violated him," she said. She detailed how she had sat up half the night comforting her crying son. He had been distressed by a document prepared for yesterday's court hearing, in which one of his doctors said he had the "intellectual age of a much younger teenager".
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1426576.ece
At birth, the babies weighed less than two pounds (1kg) each, and measured less than an outstretched adult hand. They were put into incubators but within a week two had died. Doctors told the parents that the surviving infants desperately needed blood transfusions if they were to survive, but once again the parents refused.
The babies’ parents, still unnamed, it now emerged, were Jehovah’s Witnesses. Beyond evangelising, Jehovah’s Witnesses are commonly known for one other thing: their fervent opposition to blood transfusions. In their faith, it is nothing less than akin to rape.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/293424.stm
Dr Michael Ward, chairman of the Association of Anaesthetists working party, which drew up the guidelines, says: "Administering blood to a Jehovah's Witness without consent has been likened by the movement to rape.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/hb/article_04.htm
Many people agree that a court is no place for personal medical issues. How would you feel if you chose antibiotic therapy but someone went to court to force a tonsillectomy on you? A doctor may want to provide what he thinks is the best care, but he has no duty to seek legal justification to trample on your basic rights. And since the Bible puts abstaining from blood on the same moral level as avoiding fornication, to force blood on a Christian would be the equivalent of forcible sex—rape.— Acts 15:28, 29 .
(edited to add when i say buzzword maybe i should have said 'loaded language' ?)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general431.html
"Loading the language" is another common theme in a cultic setting. A special jargon that gives the members a feeling of exclusiveness and that they possess some esoteric knowledge. This "loadedlanguage" helps build solidarity amongst an elite group that speak the same cultic verbiage/lingo. It also gives the newcomer yet an extra incentive to become more involved with the group--in order to learn this language and understand what everyone is saying. Loaded Language is characterized by "thought terminating" buzz words and phrases that constrict thinking and typically replace any meaningful and independent critical analysis. This can become overwhelming and dominate the member's speech and conversation--while also binding the group together through their common language.
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bluesapphire
Is there any way to sue the judge or appeal after the fact or something? We need to keep this in the public's eye, somehow. What can be done so that this judge pays and no judge will ever make the same mistake again?
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carla
This judge should be charged with assisted suicide charges.