Believing what I read - a Skeptic's course

by jgnat 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I struggle, here and elsewhere, to explain my violent reaction against unsubstantiated claims. After all, the believer produces testimonals and "scientific" evidence to support their belief. My acceptance of saccharin and aspartame has been challenged, for instance. My general disbelief in conspiracy theories as well. Particularly horrifying for me is the production of videos or YouTube clips to support these claims. At least with the written word, I have the choice of skimming, skipping or dropping it.

    But nooo, in order to fully understand the illogical believer, I must be captive audience to a random collection of thoughts and "evidences", carefully strung together. I will try here to explain what is required for me to believe the unbelievable. From the Wikipedia article, an empirical skeptic "merely seeks likely proof before accepting that knowledge".

    - Run it through the critical thinking principles. Has "bad logic" been employed to sway my thinking?

    - Testimonials are not enough. Was the claim run through a double blind test?

    - Ocham's Razor. Is there a simpler explanation? Then that is more likely to be true.

    - Are the quotes and claims properly cited so that I can investigate them myself?

    I think like this because of my short time with a debating club. As part of our training, we learned to debate both sides of a subject. When I realized that all topics have at least two convincing sides, I went through a minor moral crisis. I wondered then, if anything can be certain. I concluded was that there is usually a more believable side, and to never deny the evidence of my senses.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I think you are just a mole planted by the Illuminati for the purpose of discrediting those who are on the right path for exposing the evil conspiracies of the Illuminati!

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Critically thinking over a cup of Typhoo . . . .

    God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth." -- Jurassic Park

  • hmike
    hmike

    I think most of our choices are based more on emotion or appeal. When we decide to let evidence be the basis for a choice, we face many challenges. It takes time to gather and process information. Then, can we even have access to all the important information? Finally, once we get the information together, what criteria do we use to evaluate? What relative value to we place on different types of evidence? What level of probability are we looking for? Most of the time, we end up making choices with far less information than we'd like, but we have to or we'd be perpetually stuck in the evaluation mode.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I struggle, here and elsewhere, to explain my violent reaction against unsubstantiated claims.

    Honey, you and me both! I feel exactly the same way. That is why I get a little touchy when I see old canards (like the Jesus/Krishna/Horus/Dionysius/Mithra are exactly alike in 15 different ways meme) being dragged out, or nonsense (like Simcha Jacobivichi's Exodus Decoded program or Tony Bushby's lies about the Nicene Council) being peddled. I just feel that people can do better. There's so much stuff out there to study or talk about, so much science and history to explore, that it is annoying that people waste their time with these things. And if dishonesty or logical fallicies are involved, it gets me worked up in the same way when the Society misquoted sources or deceptively presented their evidence.

    Particularly horrifying for me is the production of videos or YouTube clips to support these claims.

    I have often found these Youtube videos, and Youtube comments in particular, to represent the lowest-common denominator of logic and skepticism. There are some great beacons of reason out there, but I am always amazed how much junk there is as well (and people can be downright nasty there as well).

  • Shawn10538
    Shawn10538

    Leolaia is one of the biggest apologists on this board. I think it is ridiculous that she is bold enough to comment on this thread. What is your evidence that the IDENTICAL stories to the Jesus myth that were told for milleniums before Jesus of Nazereth are not relevant in deciding whether Jesus ever existed? I would think that a person who hears someone repeat a well known myth like the "sky is falling" would not be taken seriously because that person is telling a story identical, practically, to a well known myth, that myth being Chicken Little. Under what circumstances would one believe the Chicken Little story if told by , say, the most credible person in the world? UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES would a logical person accept a well known myth, Christ myth or otherwise, if that story were to identically match up with a very well known and ancient myth that preceded it. Right? Does a single person on this board doubt this logic?

    Let me try to state it again. Everyone knows the myth of Appolos who rides the chariot accross the sky. What if the most credible person on the earth were to say, "I just saw my friend Jesus in a chariot foating accross the sky." Would you believe him? Would you have to go out and check the sky to know he is wrong? You don't believe him first of all because he is telling a well known myth. How could it be that a person JUST happens to live his life exactly like a million well known myths and legends? The fact that his story has already been told is PROOF, not evidence, PROOF that the Jesus myth, is a myth. There is no explanation that would make that story believable, because it was a well known myth at the time of its supposed taking place.

    I'm sure apologists have an answer to this. Probably they will say that God commissioned these stories to be told by evil pagans for the purpose of prophesy.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Easy there, Shawn.

    Leolaia is no apologist.

    She's not vocal about her beliefs, or lack thereof.

    She's more about meticulous presentation of fact.

    I am an atheist.

    I am familiar with the common themes between Christianity and other ancient legends, some pre-Christian, some post, but I am very hesistant to buy into something just because it's on a website.

    Leolaia and jgnat are simply pointing out the need to be cautious.

    Though I disagree with jgnat about matters of faith, I respect her for expressing her faith as something personal and experiential, not arrogantly seeking to attack the godless with artificial facts to support her personal conclusions.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    hmike, I hear you. I get around the choices, choices quandary by applying relative risk. If the decision has a low risk factor, I go with the majority or my "gut". No harm, no foul.

    (((Leolaia))) Big busomy sqeezy hug. I've found a soulmate! Even though I only have a vague idea of the examples you gave. Do you have similar shudders when people ask you if the "Da Vinci Code" is real? After all, the author said in his preface that it is all true.

    Shawn10538, thank you for providing a fine example of bad reasoning.

    Leolaia is one of the biggest apologists on this board.

    No she isn't. What does she defend? The the words in (brackets) are my own.

    ...(ad hominem)... What is your evidence that the IDENTICAL (not identical) stories to the Jesus myth that were told for milleniums (and therefore corrupted by time, culture, and distance) before Jesus of Nazereth are not relevant in deciding whether Jesus ever existed? I would think... (speculation)... that a person who hears someone repeat a well known myth ...(bla, bla)... identically (not identical) match up with a very well known and ancient myth that preceded it. Right? Does a single person on this board doubt this logic? (yes, it's loaded with flaws)

    'Nuff said.

    nvrgbck: I respect her for expressing her faith as something personal and experiential, not arrogantly seeking to attack the godless with artificial facts to support her personal conclusions

    That's a very nice thing to say, thank you. Yes, one has to be careful with that word "facts". There are very few facts in this universe.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Oh, and elsewhere and Big Tex, LOL!!!

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Shawn10538....Boy this is really off-base. Don't you read my posts or threads? I frequently argue against the historicity of elements in the Bible (including the gospel stories) and advocate a critical approach (i.e. informed by principles of critical analysis, including higher criticism) towards Bible texts. I myself have drawn attention to mythological elements and themes in the gospel stories. So don't tell me I am an apologist. What I am against is the kind of exaggeration, overstatement, and outright BS that circulates online on the subject. Exactly the kind of exaggeration, for instance, that is found in Zeitgeist. This stuff may seem credible to the layperson, but it is ridiculous to those who actually study the subject.

    What is your evidence that the IDENTICAL stories to the Jesus myth that were told for milleniums before Jesus of Nazereth are not relevant in deciding whether Jesus ever existed?

    Notice here that you start out with the presumption that the stories are IDENTICAL. What is the evidence that there stories really were "identical"? That's my very point....they AREN'T identical. That's an exaggeration. The "Horus - Jesus" or "Dionysius - Jesus" list of parallels you see online never present any evidence or sources supporting the claims, why is that I wonder. If you missed it, here is a recent thread where I discussed this: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/148190/1.ashx. As I stated there, it's all about being accurate. I don't like seeing misinformation spread around as gospel truth. An argument is FALLACIOUS if it uses falsified evidence. Do you doubt this logic? I'm not saying that you can't make the argument or that it can't be made, I'm just saying, USE BETTER EVIDENCE.

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