Faith vs. Reason- Watchtower "apostate" quote+refutation by atheist author (page 2)

BurnTheShips

With what?

With my "dagger of the mind"? ;-)

Burn

Open mind

Excellent article Nvr.

For some reason I'm very depressed now.

Open Mind

Tatiana

I'm not depressed....this makes so much sense to me...guess I have a "virus."

What all these statements and parables have in common is the unstated theme that it is somehow virtuous or praiseworthy to believe something that is not supported by the evidence. Why this should be so is inevitably never explained. What truly deserves praise and credit is a person willing to put their ideas to the test and accept the results whatever they may be - not a person coming up with an idea, proclaiming it out of bounds for investigation, and declaring that being a morally good person requires believing it blindly without doubt or question. There is nothing virtuous about this, and most religions would probably agree with that conclusion, at least in the abstract. And yet many religions and religious people, no matter how much they claim to approve of questioning and investigation, will rapidly shift their view to one of disapproval and condemnation when it becomes clear that such an investigation is not being carried out with the sole aim of supporting a predetermined conclusion about the infallibility of the belief system being investigated. Statements like the ones above are illustrations of what happens when a supposedly free and open investigation carried out by a believer runs up against the limits of what the authorities have declared their followers may not conclude.

VoidEater

Pointless I know, but...

But if "successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect", and so widespread, how do we know that reason alone is truly guiding our actions?

It behooves you to "get out of your mind" in some way so as to have that part of you (sometimes called the "observer") to the fore. This would allow one to more clearly observe memes (or beliefs, or thoughts) in play. Therapy or meditation may be your paths to this. But you are right - it is very difficult for a microscope to examine itself, so an outside mirror of some sort is usually helpful.

I can observe, measure, quantify biological viruses. Can memes be subjected to a similar inquiry?

Yes, to an extent - see above. They can be observed. It rarely happens in a vacuum, though. And it is a mostly subjective process, since only you can directly observe your own beliefs (the rest of us can see what you do, and only guess at what motivates you).

It would appear that the memetic virus is just a construct of Dawkins’ own philosophy.

Seems to adequately describe a mental process to me...perhaps as "provable" as, say, oh, I don't know...the existance of God?

BurnTheShips

It behooves you to "get out of your mind"

Pray, teach us how to do that! Subjectivities cannot be shed.

Yes, to an extent - see above. They can be observed.

So can many things that are outside science's ken.

Seems to adequately describe a mental process to me...perhaps as "provable" as, say, oh, I don't know...the existance of God?

Hence the irony of the memetic religion-as-a-virus concept. "God" adequately describes a universal process to me.

Burn

nicolaou

Excellent! One to print off and keep.

Thanks nvrgnbk

BurnTheShips

To use the memetic paradigm, all of information is viral in nature and it competes continuosly to reproduce-selfishly. The propagation mechanisms, while physically diverse, are remarkably similar to the complex processes that govern the selfish reproduction of genetic material. Thus the coinage of the term "memetics".

There is no reason to limit the scope of memetics to religion. Scientific theory reproduces and spreads in a similar manner. Ideas instantiate on a host as the result of observation and as the offspring of the combination of other knowledge, they propagate to other hosts through either language or observation, and they compete with one another for supremacy. The memetic fields of battle are armed conflicts, markets, universities, and tables at you local coffee house. Whichever theories confer the best advantages to their hosts propagate preferentially over those that are flawed in relation.

nvrgnbk

For some reason I'm very depressed now.

Chin up, buddy.

We'll all be dead before you know it, so it doesn't really matter.

Feel better now?

hillary_step

Burn,

Your posts remind me of a butterfly circling and fluttering temptingly around the atheist, insect-eating, antitypical plant of false religion.

Do not stray too close Burnished Skipper, for thine arse will be paddled by logic and your Eyes Will See The Gory of the Lord. ;)

HS

Mrs. Witness

Interesting article nvr. I enjoyed it. Being the skeptic that I am, I thought that perhaps Mr. Dawkins had created his own meme with his meme theory and I see from prior posts that I'm not alone in that idea. Still, I wish I could get Mr. Witness to read the article, but since it's from an "athesist" site, I'm sure he'd be afraid that it would burn his eyes from their very sockets.

Mrs. Witness (of the "I don't subscribe to any ism" class)

Faith vs. Reason- Watchtower "apostate" quote+refutation by atheist author

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