Do JWs still believe the WT version of the 144000?

by nicolaou 18 Replies latest jw friends

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  nicolaou

  The Society have taught for many years that only 144,000 individuals will have embraced true worship from the time when Jesus (and presumably John the Baptist six months before him) began his ministry in about 30 C.E. all the way down through to about 1935 C.E. when the Great Crowd began to be drawn in.

  However, even a casual reading of the book of Acts shows the phenomenal growth of Christianity during the time of the Apostles. In Colossians Ch1 Paul even makes the comment that the Good News had at that point been preached to all creation that was under heaven.

  In 64 C.E, there were so many Christians in Rome already that Nero felt he could easily blame them for the destructive fire which had swept through the city. Of the fourteen districts of Rome only two survived unscathed, these were the lower class districts in the 'swampy' regions of Rome where the Christians lived! [see Carcopino's 'Daily Life in Ancient Rome']
  The city housed, even by conservative estimates, over 1,000,000 people in the 1st century. It seems that almost as many as one in seven of these may have been Christian, that's over 140,000 already!
  And what about Jerusalem, Athens, Antioch not to mention the congregations of Asia, Egypt and the whole region of the Decapolis.

  If, as the Society state in the Proclaimers book, about 60,000 of the anointed have existed since the time of C T Russell then that would mean that there could have been no more than about 85,000 Christians throughout 'all creation under heaven' in the 1st century. (This incidentally would make Russell a more successfull preacher than Christ!)

  C'mon now! You're not still buying into this whole 144'000 thing . . . . . . . . are you?

  http://www.do-not-call.org
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  rcranor

  no i'm not buying i just wonder what's going through the minds of a lot of witnesses. I mean, i guess it's obvious for us but what are they thinking?
• 

  Ranchette

  Most are not thinking beyond what they are told.
  I had been in the org all my life and never questioned this teaching till I took their advice and started reading the Bible myself.
  I had always been so overwelmed by what was expected of me and was paralyzed mentally so to speak till I got so fed up with some of the stunts they were pulling.

  I decided to put WT literature on the back burner and read what I believed to be Gods word.
  I quickly saw that the 144,000 would have been filled way before 1935!
  I was so discusted that I trusted them so much.

  Ranchette
• 

  CatholicGuy

  I've asked these questions of many Witnesses and I usually get a "I see your point" answer.

  "If the number 144,000 is a literal number in Revelation chapter 7--then is the number 12,000 from each of the "tribes" also literal? Are there literally 12 groups of 12,000 which comprise the 144,000? Or are the numbers 12 and 12,000 figurative? And if they are figurative--wouldn't consistency require that the number 144,000 also be figurative?"

  CatholicGuy
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  erik

  I am currently trying to figure out what direction to take, and I have a few questions regarding the 144,000 myself.

  So then who are the 144,000? And, just a side point the Witnesses do not say that there were no more annointed after 1935. As a matter of fact currently the teaching is that a member can be of the annointed after 1935. I have personally seen or heard of individuals that claim to be of the annointed after 1935.

  Please enlighten....
• 

  chappy

  CatholicGuy,

  Along these lines, what does the Catholic church teach about the "elect" or "the chosen few"? I've heard these terms used by several different religions all my life but could never connect it to a specific doctrine. Seems the implication is that there is some kind of small group that will rule over the earth.

  later,
  chappy
• 

  RR

  Considering that the Scriptures tell us that "many are called and few are chosen" one would see that an average of 73 persons a year since 33 were chosen to be of the 144,000 class. Not so unbelievable when you consider what this class is all about.

  Personally, although I believe that the Church, the bride of Christ is made up of 144,000, I also believe that the great company is also a heavenly class which serves God, NOT on the throne, as the 144,000 but BEFORE the throne as servants.

  I believe this is more in harmony with scriptures. IT is also a view held by the Society during the Russell years.

  ____________________________
  I Still Believe ....
• 

  Ranchette

  Eric,
  The official teaching of the witnesses I believe goes this way.

  The number 144,000 was filled by 1935 thus opening up the earthly hope.
  Any one after 1935 who claims to be anointed is just a replacement for an anointed one who proved themselves unfaithful, or one falsly making that claim, or a nut.

  Ranchette
• 

  CatholicGuy

  For Chappy,

  The Catholic Church does not view the "elect" as meaning only a few will rule the earth. The mystery of the Kingdom of God starts out as a small mustard seed but grows into a full grown tree. As far as the Catholic view on these things see the _Catechism_:

  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

  Particularly the section "The Hope of the New Heaven and the New Earth" (sections 1042-1050):

  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#VI

  Some of the figurative language of Revelation is explained in sections 1137 and 1138 of the _Catechism_. In essence, the 144,000 is seen as a figurative number that shows the People of God here on earth now and the "great multitude" is the heavenly scene of the same people seen after their glorification:

  1137 The book of Revelation of St. John, read in the Church's liturgy, first reveals to us, "A throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne": "the Lord God." It then shows the Lamb, "standing, as though it had been slain": Christ crucified and risen, the one high priest of the true sanctuary, the same one "who offers and is offered, who gives and is given." Finally it presents "the river of the water of life . . . flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb," one of most beautiful symbols of the Holy Spirit. 1138 "Recapitulated in Christ," these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand), especially the martyrs "slain for the word of God," and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb, and finally "a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues."

  CatholicGuy
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  Dan B

  I could never bring myself to explain why the 144,000 was to be taken literally, as explained by the WT, to people at the door. Remember the explaination? It was something like this: "Since the Lamb is mentioned in the singular in Rev 14:1, obviously the 144,000 is also a literal number."

  Even as a gung-ho MS, I had a huge problem with this. Take a look at the verse. "And I saw, and look! the Lamb (symbolic, for Jesus is not an actual lamb) standing upon the mount Zion (symbolic place) and with him a 144,000 (literal?????) having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads (symbolic once again). In fact all three places where this number appears are surrounded with symbolism.

  This verse is, as is the rest of Revelation, 100% symbolic. I believe that the number 144,000 is representative of a larger number, perhaps even a "great crowd" as mention in Rev 19:1.

  Just my opinion...

  Dan